Episode transcription

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Transcript

Anne Trager (00:00)
Hi everyone, and welcome to the Human Pulse podcast where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Anne Trager, a human potential coach.

Fabrice Neuman (00:09)
And I'm Fabrice Neuman, a tech consultant for small businesses.

Anne Trager (00:13)
We are recording this on May 13th, 2025.

Fabrice Neuman (00:18)
Human pulse is usually never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

Anne Trager (00:22)
Today is a very special episode for us as we are having our very first guest ever. are really thrilled to have the renowned media psychologist, global speaker, and thought leader, Dr. Jerri Lynn Hogg, who has come to join us today. She is specialized in the art of digital living, the intersection of psychology, technology, and artificial intelligence.

Jerri Lynn researches and consults on this convergence of psychology, technology, education, culture, with a very special concentration on human behaviors in digital environments.

Fabrice Neuman (01:04)
Welcome, Jerri Lynn and thank you for joining us today.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (01:07)
I’m happy to be here.

Anne Trager (01:08)
Did I miss anything on that introduction?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (01:12)
I think you did amazing. Thank you.

Anne Trager (01:14)
Okay, fantastic.

Well, so you are really a pioneer in the field of media psychology, in shaping how we understand how media and technology influence human behavior and cognition. So can you tell us, from your perspective, what it means to live well with technology?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (01:37)
That's a really good question. And I would say it's when technology disappears. So in other words, when it's seamlessly integrated into your life. Me personally, I love to have technology at my fingertips. I mean information at my fingertips. So from anything going from my Apple watch where I can look and see what time it is, what temperature do I need to grab that coat, the GPS, although I do still wish… maps just a little bit. The idea that I can plug something in and get to it without worrying and concerned about that. I know there's privacy issues, but the idea that Netflix immediately allows me to have personalized choices available. And because I'm a book geek and information geek, I love the idea that something is seamlessly in my pocket, that I can pull out the information, read a book.

I think the biggest one for me is to have communications on demands and be able to connect with rather immediately with loved ones, friends or colleagues. So I'd say ultimately it's being able to have that connection piece.

Anne Trager (02:53)
And I love the way you say it, when technology disappears and we just have the end results.

Fabrice Neuman (02:54)
Yeah, that's very interesting. So you gave us quite a list. Do you remember the first piece of tech that gave you this feeling of in your life? And I have to add, because they exist too, which piece of tech made you feel the opposite? Like basically, what's your worst tech memory?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (03:23)
I'll have to think about that for a minute, but what immediately comes to mind is the awe of technology, which has been with me from a very young age. My father, when I was a very small child, took me to work and took me into the computer lab, which meant floor to ceiling, wall to wall machinery with tiles that you lifted up from the floor and can see all of the cords and technology in there. And probably what was in that room, we could do on a calculator now. I'm exaggerating, but not a lot. And I knew from that young age that I always wanted to somehow be involved with technology. But let me move it to something, maybe the next time I really was wowed and awed by technology, a little bit more recent, but still we're talking about in the early 2000s.

And it's now passé, but Second Life. And I was actually teaching a class there, and for those who don't know, I would say it was a precursor to some of the immersive reality kinds of things that we do, the virtual reality things. Even though virtual reality was already being researched in very rudimentary ways being used back then, second life was something that was two-dimensional on your computer.

But it was a way to be able to represent yourself in avatars and visit different locations. And I had taught a class in there. And when I finished the class, a couple of my colleagues and I said, well, let's just teleport over to this beach and chat. Now it was winter snowstorm in Connecticut where I lived. And then I had another colleague that was in Philadelphia and another colleague that was on the West Coast in Southern California. So we were not geographically close at all. And yet we're sitting on the beach in this virtual reality, except for 2D experience, and waves are coming over the beach and the palm trees and the breeze are blowing. And I truly lost that sense of that we were geographically dispersed. I really felt we were there and I could really feel that experience.

And as a psychologist, I'm like, how is this happening? And I was fascinated by that. And I think that really sort of drove some of my additional research in psychology about that experience and have done a lot of research with ⁓ immersive reality since then, which also people call virtual reality or augmented reality and all the potential that it has.

Fabrice Neuman (06:13)
Put a pin in that, because I would like to still get your answer on the worst piece of technology that you lived through. But then we'll come back to this virtual reality, because it's obviously even more present today as it was then.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (06:18)
Okay.

Anne Trager (06:30)
And I'd like to do that. And I would like to just draw our attention to the fact that today, here we are. We're in Europe. You're in the United States. And we have this feeling of being in proximity. And it is normal everyday life for everybody around the world right now to come into these virtual spaces. And what you're describing is one of the first experiences of that, actually, before it became such a common everyday thing with people bitching and moaning about having another Zoom meeting. So I would just like to say it is wonderful that we can do this.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (07:06)
Well, and I think that's one of the challenges that we have with technology in general, is that there's pros and cons to it. So this ability to be seamlessly connected like this, to forget that we have never shared the same physical space, and yet there's an intimacy in relationships. But then we also think about the cognitive load that a Zoom meeting, especially if you're on it for a long time, which is great that you guys are doing your podcasts for 30 minutes or less, but the cognitive load of we're not used to having to stare directly at someone for that long, and yet oftentimes we will perceive it as rude if we're not, as we're not paying attention or we're disinterested. We're not used to seeing the heads quite so big on a screen in front of us. And then in this case, it's just the three of us on a screen, but multiple.

Fabrice Neuman (07:44)
Yeah.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (08:06)
You oftentimes were I like to affectionately call the Brady Bunch which doesn't translate to all places but that idea that you have all these squares of people and that you're looking up and around as you're talking to them.

Fabrice Neuman (08:21)
That's aging us a bit, but I would urge people who don't know what their reference is to search for the Brady Bunch on YouTube and you'll get the idea.

Anne Trager (08:32)
And you're bringing up things that are so important and that as somebody who spends all day on Zoom in coaching, well, in this kind of visual video interface in coaching situations is that I actually think about the distance I am to the screen with my initial client meetings, for example, is that I will tend to start a little farther back because it's more natural. I mean, if you don't know somebody, you're not going to get right up in their face. I don't know if it really makes a difference on, on this interface, but I know I pay attention to it.

Fabrice Neuman (09:15)
That's interesting.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (09:16)
Definitely and that can be a whole segment of research right there just in the actual call itself, the actual meeting itself and all the body language and everything that's going on.

Fabrice Neuman (09:32)
Yeah. Anne mentioned the fact that it's nowadays, like in our daily lives, to use video conferencing software as we are doing right now. In your line of work, were you able to actually uh determine with precision before and after COVID in that regard?

Anne Trager (09:33)
Okay.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (09:55)
Well, it's interesting because I, for a long time, given what I was telling you about, I was conducting classes in Second Life. I was, I actually got to pilot test Zoom, back right around 2010. I don't remember the exact date. So I was used to connecting on Zoom way back when.

Fabrice Neuman (10:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (10:24)
And Zoom is just one of our multiple platforms that are available to us to be able to connect. So what I found interesting was when the whole world rejoined us. ⁓ But to your point, I think everybody was really uncomfortable, still getting used to it. Some people jumped right in, other people, you know, we all had those funny stories of people forgetting that they were on camera and what kinds of things happened then and, know.

To think but I feel like the pre and post COVID is people have realized that's just one of the ways they might have preferences but that's just one of the ways that they're going to meet.

It's also interesting how different industries or groups require camera on or camera off.

Anne Trager (11:05)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's like this huge global experiment. So fascinating. You must be completely fascinated by it. And we have not come back to the answer of that question, your worst tech experience.

Fabrice Neuman (11:13)
Yeah, that's very true.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (11:20)
Yeah.

Fabrice Neuman (11:21)
Okay.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (11:30)
So I thought about it very briefly here and I thought I couldn't pinpoint myself to one specific one. And then I thought about the fact that it's whenever you have that level of frustration when there's information you need. So I'm going to use passwords as a perfect example. You know, when you're trying to get into something and they're insisting that you're log on and back and forth and you just can't get on. So would say whenever there's a technology where there's a really

There's a huge learning curve and or access challenge in when I really want what's on the other side.

Anne Trager (12:11)
Huh, okay. So huge learning curve, access challenge, and you really want something.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (12:18)
I really want it, right? Because otherwise, it'll be like, I didn't really want to go down this way. Let's go this way today.

Anne Trager (12:25)
Right,

Fabrice Neuman (12:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can avoid confronting the... Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (12:29)
But there's certain things, for example, here's, and this is not about access so much, but let's talk about privacy. And if you really want to protect your privacy or you want to be mindful of it, and then you also really want to use an app. Well, you've got to check that box if you want to use it. So you know, we're always, with technology, I think we're always sort of making oftentimes micro, but trade-offs.

Fabrice Neuman (12:57)
Do you think that we as a collective, are aware enough of all these choices that we make every time we use a service or we decide to use an app?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (13:11)
I think we are not aware we are having to make so many of those decisions all the time. It makes it difficult to function. But true awareness of how much of our information is out there, I don't think so.

Anne Trager (13:22)
Well, the cognitive load, yeah.

You're making me think of my own use. And I know that I am one of those users who just wants it to work. I want the end result. I don't care how it works. I don't really care that much about the privacy issue. I don't think about that too much cognitive load. I just want it to work. And I have zero patience when it doesn't work.

That's when I have my frustration. It's like, this doesn't work, and it has to work about immediately. Again, what you're saying, the ease with which you can get there. And if it doesn't work immediately, usually, Fabrice hears about it in the office downstairs, because I tend to make disagreeable sounds and say words that I would not say live here.

Fabrice Neuman (14:16)
Thank you

Jerri Lynn Hogg (14:25)
Well, and I think that's one of the things with all the different artificial intelligence applications now is people are so worried and so overwhelmed and this or that. And I truly believe the technology is just going to continue to get more and more sophisticated and integrated where we won't have all of those challenges. So while we need to understand how it works and pick a few favorites to use, I don't think long term we're going to need to have highly sophisticated skills about how to prompt or how to use artificial, I'm talking about generative AI right now, because we know AI has been around for a long time, but generative AI.

Anne Trager (15:08)
Well, you if I bring it to a more day-to-day thing, I absolutely do not need to know how the clothes washing machine works. Although right now, I would really appreciate it because it's not working. There's a leak. OK? So I have to call somebody in. But I don't ask myself that question. Like, I don't say I have to train myself before I buy a dishwasher or a clothes washer to understand how it works.

And with technology, it's as if there's been this whole phase where we actually believe we have to understand how it works, because we used to have to understand more about how it works in order to actually use it, when ultimately all we really want to do is just use it.

Fabrice Neuman (15:55)
I guess it's like with cars, beginning of car driving, would not be able to drive if you didn't know how a car worked. then we're fast forward to today with electric cars. would almost say nobody knows how they work, but it doesn't matter. You press a button and you go. So I guess that's the natural way of going for technology, as you were describing with...generative AI because and probably even more so with the the voice that's my it's been my thing for a while now the voice, not only voice you know dictation but voice interaction with GenAI you know the conversational mode that you can have in voice mode it seems to be for now, I don't know what you think about that, the most natural thing to do with a tool, because it's probably the most natural thing we do between humans. So having a vocal conversation with an AI feels to me incredibly natural and probably not as natural as the next thing that's going to appear.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (17:13)
So to that point, I used to argue with my students, I would actually make them do an assignment about do we really need to know how to read? Do we really need to be literate? know, literacy was such a big push, you know, talking about the percentage of people that were literate, et cetera. And they just, that was blasphemous that I said that. And now it's conceivable between imagery and the text-to-voice type of things that are out there and the way that we're continuing to move. I'm even thinking about how Google has that notebook that will create a podcast for you from text. So it's really quite interesting in what our understanding today is versus what the understanding will be in the future, I don't know that we can even completely conceive what that will look like.

Fabrice Neuman (18:20)
That’s pretty close to what people would say when the first calculators appeared, like we don't need to learn how to calculate anymore because we have machines that we can now put in our pockets, blah, blah, blah. So we don't need to do that. ⁓ I would like to emphasize also the fact that you just blew my mind going from cars to literacy. I was not expecting that turn.

Anne Trager (18:44)
And it makes me think about how will people, we don't need to know how to write so much anymore either. And punctuation is going to the wayside, you know, and okay. So maybe this is just a natural, I know my inner editor is like getting really, really uncomfortable. And maybe that's just the way of things and maybe it's okay. As long as we can continue to communicate with each other.

Fabrice Neuman (18:55)
No, not okay.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (19:10)
Two mantras about technology and you've just brought up one of them. Is it good or bad or just different? So much like we know that technology over the centuries has caused angst for the previous generation and we have multiple, multiple examples of that. I agree with you. I want it punctuated. I want it be grammatically correct, but again, is it good, bad, or just different?

Anne Trager (19:44)
I love that question. Yeah.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (19:44)
And then my other one is what is lost and what is gained in the change.

Anne Trager (19:52)
So we circle back to that notion of trade-offs. What are the trade-offs and what are we making? Right now it's coming out on top for me at least. Speaking of circling back, I would love to circle back to this immersive media. We haven't talked very much about that yet on this podcast to begin with. And you are an expert in this area.

Is this the next step in embedding tech in our daily lives? And do you think that it's the path to better living with technology?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (20:29)
I see it as really powerful technology to be used for specific purposes. So in other words, I still believe human connection, in-person human connection is incredibly powerful.

And yet I wouldn't give up Zoom or other meeting platforms because the opportunity that it's allowed me to be able to speak to so many different people. ⁓ I'll give an example of one time that I, again, that I was blown away with with technology and immersive and it was at a virtual reality conference. It was in their expo hall and someone was selling the human body virtual reality app primarily to teach medical students so they could understand which bone is connected, what ligaments connected, all of those kinds of things. And I got into the experience and at the time I had pulled a muscle and I didn't know exactly where, but I have enough ⁓ training in anatomy and physiology that I thought that if I could figure out where it was, I could then at least put myself in, minimize the pain or eliminate the pain.

And I got to be able to be inside the human body looking up and in and seeing how everything was connected so that I could figure out what it was that was bothering me. And it was just such a powerful way of being able to demonstrate, learn, observe the human body. think that's amazing. There are all kinds of social emotional things that they've been able to do.

Much like Second Life used to do and now immersive reality in a better way, people that maybe are for whatever reason not able to walk can be in an avatar that can or other different issues. The idea that we can take something like what we're doing right now one step further by physically embodying being in the same space.

For certain things would be powerful. I think this is perfectly fine for most of them. But I wouldn't say we all need to hop in and be side by side on the couch with our VR goggles on, essentially ignoring the fact that we are physically next to each other and yet all being in some kind of experience, whether it's in person or geographically in person or distance. So I think it's an incredible tool with powerful uses, but not necessarily where we need to reside or escape to.

Anne Trager (23:11)
Interesting. Yeah, I always wonder about those having those goggles and how that changes the experience because the eyes are such an important part of our experience of the world. And when you're and I know that the engineers behind this and the specialists behind those goggles like work on that. However, I wonder how that changes the experience to be looking at something so close to your eyes while you're having this experience of the body not being so, I don't know, I'm just so curious what that does inside the mind and how that changes the experience.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (23:49)
Well they have created contacts.

Those are still in prototype and they've used them for various things. I think again, the technology is going to continue to get more robust where maybe or several of the negative issues will be resolved.

Anne Trager (24:14)
Yeah, and I don't know. I think that at the same, to a certain extent, we are extraordinarily adaptable. So we'll figure it out. We'll figure out how to do it. And like you said, maybe this is not a place where we should reside and escape, but have the experience from time to time and then allow our natural way of living which is a lot more primitive to actually exist, which is getting outside, having the light of day, looking off into the distance, ⁓ actually being with other people, perhaps touching other people in an appropriate way, and so on and so forth. These are things that we do as human beings and that physiologically have important impacts on our health and well-being.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (25:02)
Well I think to your point is that that awe and that wow of technology shouldn't be the only reason to use it. And we often, I would suggest, forget how powerful it is to just be, or the human touch, or sharing the space. And maybe there's ⁓ science that we don't fully understand that will show how powerful it is. know some, but maybe there's even more out there that shows how powerful it is that we can be in that same space together.

Fabrice Neuman (25:41)
There's a narrow, I would say, example of that. Apple tried to express the eyes, and they put on their Vision Pro device, that you know, obviously. They put a screen on the outside that can show somewhat your eyes when somebody else enters the room.

I wonder if you had experienced this particular way of trying to keep eye contact, even if you have a VR headset on, and what you think of that. OK. OK.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (26:22)
No, I haven't experienced that. That's fascinating. ⁓ Interesting. But then again, it's artificial, right? If I'm understanding you correctly, it's that.

Fabrice Neuman (26:35)
very much so, if you ask me. ⁓ So ⁓ hopefully, you'll be able to see what it looks like, because I would very much like to have your feedback on that.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (26:51)
Yes, I'd like to try that. I'm on a mission now. Thanks to you.

Fabrice Neuman (26:54)
Okay.

Anne Trager (26:54)
Hahaha

Fabrice Neuman (26:57)
Jerri Lynn, you talked a lot about Second Life. What do you think of the metaverse, ⁓ let's say, experiment? ⁓ And how does it fit into your experience in that area?

Jerri Lynn Hogg (27:16)
Again, I find it a great resource. And in some particular cases, more powerful to be able to connect. When I attend things where the people who are sort of half disembodied, you know, you see the upper torso of them and then they're gone, I'm not as enamored. I do know that we have that suspension of disbelief.

Fabrice Neuman (27:36)
Hmm.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (27:45)
The type of thing going on and that we after some time there are fine. But I do find it's an experiment at this point. And one that allows, so I'll talk about another virtual reality experience I had that I do think was really powerful. And again, people were in different locations, but I was going to see a company that did virtual reality and they were using it in industry, particularly ⁓ aircraft and automobile, that type of industry. And I was in this crowded little suite in Las Vegas where there were a bunch of other vendors all talking to people about other things. And I was crammed up against a wall and put the virtual reality headset on. There was one other person right next to me.

And then there were somebody in Santa Barbara, California. And then there was somebody on the East coast of the United States doing this demonstration. They were doing this demonstration of how you would be able to change out certain parts in an airplane, which is not my area of interest or expertise. So right away you would think it'd be a big snooze fest for me. Their faces were represented with like little caricature black mask kind of things hopping around, and then some hands doing things. And I thought, how could I be immersed here? And I can't tell you, but it was very where I completely forgot I was in this loud, crazy room with a whole bunch of other things going on crammed up against a wall and not in the same space as these other people, including those little masks that were floating around with suspended hands.

So I don't know. I don't know, again, good, bad, different. Is it the different because I'm adverse to change or only want to change in so many different directions? ⁓ What can it become? Again, I think it's an additional piece to have available for certain circumstances, but not necessarily one ⁓ that I want to spend a lot of time residing in.

Anne Trager (30:10)
What I am hearing is a fabulous testimony to how we create our own reality. You know, this, you go from one environment where you are paying attention to all of these people and the fact that you're cramped and whatever, and then you're paying attention to something else and your entire reality changes.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (30:16)
Mmm, there you go, yes.

Anne Trager (30:34)
So that says something to me with or without technology, we can use that because that's a technology in our head is that where we put our focus is what we see and experience of reality.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (30:46)
It's such a great way of putting it, yes.

Anne Trager (30:49)
I believe we are coming up upon the end of our podcast

So, Jerri Lynn, can you tell us how people can follow you and connect with you? And we will put that information as well in the show notes.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (31:04)
Great. Well, I'm on Bluesky as well as X with the same ⁓ name and that is Hogg JL. So H-O-G-G-J-L. And you can also feel free to email me at hoggjl@gmail.com I have sort of a hook on those in several places. And I also have my website which is jerrilynnhogg.com. And that's an interesting way to spell it so you might want to look to the show notes.

Fabrice Neuman (31:39)
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Jerri Lynn for participating and being our first guest in our podcast. So thank you even more.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (31:48)
What an honor. And it was a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you for inviting me.

Fabrice Neuman (31:56)
And while that's it, and so thank you all for joining us. Visit humanpulsepodcast.com for links in past episodes.

Anne Trager (32:04)
Thank you for subscribing as well and reviewing wherever it is that you listen to your podcasts. It helps other people to find us. And please share this with one person around you who's interested in living well with technology. See you in two weeks.

Fabrice Neuman (32:22)
Jerri Lynn thank you again, bye everyone.

Jerri Lynn Hogg (32:25)
Thank you.