Episode transcription

(Be aware this transcription was done by AI and might contain some mistakes)

Anne Trager
Hi everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast where we talk about living well with technology. I’m Ann Trager.

Fabrice Neuman
and I’m Fabrice Neuman.

Anne Trager
We are recording on February 9th, 2025.

Fabrice Neuman
Human Pulse is never longer than 30 minutes, so let’s get started.

Anne Trager
We have talked about sleep, have talked about coffee, both of which are ways to have more energy since everything is so much better with energy. And what if now we talked about what we often want to do with that energy, which in my case at least is to focus.

Fabrice Neuman
Good for you.

Anne Trager
Okay, there’s no doubt that focus and our ability to pay attention to anything for any extended amount of time is being severely tested these days. And I don’t know about you, but there’s the constant ping of notifications. There’s the clutter on my desk. There’s the hum of, you know, stuff going on. All of these things pull your attention in a thousand different directions.

And then there’s the telephone. The telephone will, even if it’s off, as long as you can see it, draw your mind away from whatever you’re doing as it lures you in for another dopamine hit. What could possibly happen next? Who could possibly ding me next? I don’t know. Does this resonate with you, Fabrice?

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, of course. It’s funny because you didn’t lead with the phone, which I think is the main provider of distractions.

Anne Trager
And it is not the only provider of distractions.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, that’s very interesting to actually note because when we talked about this subject, I mainly focused, hint, hint, on the phone basically or the technology side of focus and distractions and stuff. And maybe I’m taking what you just said as a slight judgment of the state of my desk, but we can talk about this later.

Anne Trager
Yeah. Well, what we need to keep in mind is that our minds are the perfect distraction machines. We could even call distraction a superpower. We are always looking for something that’s either wrong with this picture or something that’s new. And then what we tend to do is do something about that—something wrong or that something new. And when things are the same, well, we get a little bored.

And this may actually be a really good thing for our long-term survival and innovation. However, it is completely disastrous for focus. And anyone who has ever tried to meditate knows how short our focus can be on just one thing. For example, if you’re trying to just focus on your breath, it lasts about, well, I don’t know, maybe 10 seconds before your mind wanders. In meditation circles, they call this the monkey mind as it swings around from place to place all the time.

And this is the reality of our situation. It’s normal. It’s a superpower. And we have to be aware of it if we want to rein it in and actually focus on one thing. So Fabrice, tell me what your experience is on an average day. How much time, how much of your attention actually is your own?

Fabrice Neuman
I don’t think you need to meditate to actually see your mind wandering off. So I would say, let’s say my mind—because I don’t want to judge anybody else—is also linked to work.

Anne Trager
You’re right.

Fabrice Neuman
For me it’s more difficult to focus because as I’m doing something, my mind keeps going to all the other things I have to do. And so it’s an endless circle where I want to focus on finishing something, but then it’s difficult because every few minutes it goes, “Yeah, but I also have this and that to do.” I don’t exactly manage that well. I would say focus is a challenge indeed for that reason. I’m questioning something though about the lack of focus being a superpower if I understood correctly what you said. Because how can it be a superpower if it’s impeding your capacities all the time?

Anne Trager
Well, it’s not. What the lack of focus—this ability to pick up on things that are new or different in our environment—is what allows us to survive. So this is part of the way we’re built. And then what happens is if it’s a threat—and we usually consider most things to be a threat—we slip into a highly focused mode, which is stress.

Fabrice Neuman
Mm.

Anne Trager
And stress is so focused that it actually shuts off your thinking mind, which is not ideal. So what we’re looking for to be focused is enough stress to narrow in our focus, but not so much that we’re completely shut off from thinking and end up running away. And there’s a really delicate balance to find. We need to create an environment that allows us to do that—one that is not overstimulated, where we do not have this sensory overload. At the same time, if you sit down in front of a series, you actually focus pretty well, right? So we also have that superpower—the superpower of being able to focus on certain things. If it’s a good story, a story is a wonderful way to get people to focus. If it’s a good story, we continue to pay attention.

Fabrice Neuman
So I suppose you can tell yourself a story to help focus on something—like all the tasks you have to do. Maybe you can build a story around it so you stay focused on it. I should try that.

Anne Trager
That’s a great idea. I love that idea. You can try it, see how it goes, and report back. There’s that and there’s the environment. I often tell people that if you have a long list of things to do, it is actually helpful to write it down and set it aside because it’s like a story that you tell your mind—that I will take care of this later.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, so that’s a challenge for me too. Sometimes, every now and then, I list things, put them on a list, and it works. You put your mind at ease—whether it’s on paper or on the screen, it doesn’t matter, at least for me. And then for whatever reason, I don’t follow through with the list and go back to juggling all the things in my head. So I have to remind myself every now and then that I should put it down so I can focus better.

Anne Trager
Or you could try to create a habit of writing things down. A habit is something you don’t need to think about.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, so that’s another thing—creating a habit and changing your habit. We hinted at that last episode, how difficult it is to change your habit or to create one. It’s sometimes a little overwhelming—you add something to do in order to be better at everything else.

Anne Trager
Exactly. So what I’m hearing from this conversation is that focus is a really multifactorial thing. There is this difficulty that we’re all facing in this high-tech world. We’re living in an age of overstimulation, sensory overload, and non-stop video conferencing, with dings and pings all the time. And there is the environment we create in which we try to focus—a space or a time dedicated to focus—and there’s how we handle everything going on in our mind. So it truly is multifactorial.

A few other things that come to mind are multitasking and interruptions. Our brains are not very good at multitasking. Some people feel like they’re multitasking, but usually what happens is that inside the brain, you switch from one task to another very quickly, which is exhausting. So multitasking is very draining.

The biggest hack is to single-task. Only do one thing at a time—maybe not for a long period, but only one thing at once.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, it’s another way of saying the word focus—single-tasking or focus are synonyms.

Anne Trager
Exactly. Exactly.

The other difficulty we have is interruptions. Whether you’re in an open office space, which is disastrous for focus, or working alone on a computer with constant dings and pings, we are interrupted all the time. And these interruptions are really eroding our productivity and our energy levels.

Fabrice Neuman
Sure. Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager
On average, people spend—this is a statistic I’ve found—11 minutes on a task before they get interrupted or distracted. That’s not a very long time, and it’s not a chosen interruption. And when you are interrupted or distracted, studies show it takes 23 minutes and 15 seconds to fully recover your focus after a distraction—more time than you were actually focused on the task.

Fabrice Neuman
This statistic always amazes me because how can it take 23 minutes to recover? Every time I hear that, I think, “Come on, I get a ding and I don’t even read the notification because it doesn’t matter. I’m back on task.” So is it like an average, or does it really take 23-plus minutes every time?

Anne Trager
I think it is an average. The point is, when you’re distracted, you’re truly distracted—and it takes time for your mind to get back to where it was. So pay attention to the quality of your focus before the interruption and after. There will be a gap, and there will be time needed to get back to that initial state.

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager
So we lose a lot of time and energy going back and forth, switching gears. This is what happens. We are not as efficient when we switch, and it can be mentally exhausting. That said, the period of actual productive focus is often short. Many people are not capable of focusing for a very long time. If you really pay attention, that period of intense focus might only be about 20 minutes before you start thinking, “I’m a little thirsty,” or needing a change. The idea is to figure out what your natural focus time is and build your habits around that. So if it’s 20 minutes, work in 20-minute intervals. There’s the famous Pomodoro technique: work for 20 minutes, break for five minutes, and repeat. It works for some people—even if 20 minutes is too short for others. Some have a longer focus period.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm. To me, it sounds also so mechanical.

Anne Trager
Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t work for me, but it works for some. It’s a way to experiment and see what your natural focus length is. Generally speaking, the body has a periodicity of about 90 minutes.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Anne Trager
It’s a cycle that we go through. You cycle through your sleep stages at night in about 90 minutes, and that rhythm carries through the day. So when you’re working on your focus, it’s hard to maintain it beyond 90 minutes because the body needs a break too. Anyway, we’re going off into the weeds—which I suppose is the purpose of this podcast. However, okay.

Fabrice Neuman
Duh.

Anne Trager
I’m getting a little distracted.

Fabrice Neuman
No!

Anne Trager
Okay, so I have a few favorite anti-distraction hacks. My absolute favorite one is the off button—my phone is usually off, for example. And my second favorite is having absolutely zero notifications anywhere. That might annoy some people because you can’t reach me unless I decide you can. What about you?

Fabrice Neuman
Well, first of all, I want to react to the fact that certain people are sometimes annoyed because you are very good at not being reachable—even if it’s for too long a period for me. But that’s also my balance. Notifications, as I mentioned at the beginning, are the main distraction for me. I’ve reduced the number of notifications on my phone, computer, whatever, because they all come from the same source. One thing I’m struggling with, however, is reachability—you just mentioned it—because I want to stay reachable for my clients. Sometimes it’s hard for me to even decide, “Okay, for an hour I will not be reachable,” because there’s always something in the back of my mind saying, “What if a customer needs me?” Even though, logically, everyone can wait an hour, it still bothers me. So it’s a struggle to turn off all notifications even for a short period.

Anne Trager
And it’s enough.

Fabrice Neuman
This discussion, for example, makes me think about that. I will try shorter periods during which I turn everything off and not be notified, and I’m sure it will help.

Anne Trager
And see what happens. I think you’re speaking to something very real for many people: the belief that our job is to be there for others. We need to figure out what expectations others have of us. We often make up a lot of things about what we need to be doing. It requires a real look—stepping back to see what others truly expect, and figuring out the actual amount of time I can step away without getting notifications. Then, you adjust your mindset to say, “It’s okay not to be available for a set period because I’ll respond later.” There’s a lot of work involved in figuring out how to be more focused in this kind of environment. And yes, technology is a factor. At one time, we didn’t have cell phones, and life was different. For a long time, I even worked without a cell phone and still maintained focus—because everyone did. So while tech definitely contributes to the erosion of focus, it’s not the only factor. I read an article in the New Yorker reviewing a book called The Wandering Mind by Jamie Kreiner—don’t know if I pronounced that correctly. The book discusses how medieval monks struggled to maintain focus, even without modern distractions, because their goal was to focus on God. So it’s not just about technology—it’s about our nature.

Fabrice Neuman
It’s reassuring in a way.

Anne Trager
In a world of constant stimuli, it’s not just modern distractions; the mind battles with focus all the time. I thought it was such a fascinating approach and it really puts things into perspective. Today, we regulate our lives for focus by using techniques like prioritization and deep work—setting aside time for single-minded focus. We use methods like time boxing, exercise, and even regulating sleep. Similarly, medieval monks experimented with techniques to combat distraction—they were meticulous about their lives, with strict rules about sleep, food, work, and possessions. This may sound contemporary to the minimalists of today. Monks focused on the divine, and we focus on everything from work to Instagram or Netflix.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
To focus on Instagram or Netflix? Whoa, there’s a disconnect here, you know?

Fabrice Neuman
Well, some people do focus on Instagram or TikTok—if that’s their career. But still…

Anne Trager
Okay, you’re right. Monks viewed the body as a source of distraction, leading to rigorous practices of asceticism and self-denial. People do similar things today—they regulate everything from when they bathe (even controlling the temperature, as some cold-plunging enthusiasts do) to what they eat. I often talk about what I’ll eat at lunch to help focus in the afternoon. They also regulated how much they slept, when they slept, and when they woke up. I see a parallel in how we all try to control our lives to improve focus.

Anyway, I found it really interesting that the book highlights how, at the time, it wasn’t the phone that was considered distracting—it was books. Books were seen as potential distractions, much like technology today. So I circle back to my earlier point: we are made for distraction, and if we want to focus, we need to figure out how to do that.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, thank you for sharing that. I think we can wrap up this podcast with a few tech-related tips to help with focus and reduce distractions. Lately, I’ve been using another phone—an Android. As you know, I’m more of an iPhone guy, but this new Android phone is from a brand called Nothing. It has an interesting black and white mode where all the icons are displayed as white circles with black logos. The effect is that it isn’t as enticing to tap an icon when your task is done, which is exactly their idea.

Anne Trager
Mm.

Fabrice Neuman
It’s funny for a phone manufacturer to say, “We’re trying to help you use your phone less.” It’s a testament to the fact that even if you try to limit use, phones will still be used a lot. But it’s not the first time manufacturers have tried to do that. You also have focus modes that have developed over the last few years. It started with Do Not Disturb—turning everything off—and evolved into more sophisticated focus modes.

Anne Trager
Day.

Fabrice Neuman
Yes, where you turn off notifications except for a few exceptions. For example, you might allow calls from family members if your kid wants to reach you, but otherwise, you set it so only work-related apps appear during the week, and on weekends you see something else like games. You can even change the screen colors or background. This helps create different environments for different types of focus. That’s why the concept of a focus mode is really interesting—you tailor your device to the time of day, the week, or even the year.

So I’d urge people to explore these focus modes and set them to their preferences. Experimentation is key, but don’t lose too much time in the process—balance is essential.

Anne Trager
Yeah. When I hear about focus mode, it sounds fascinating but too tedious for me to set up, so I just turn everything off. That’s my thing.

Fabrice Neuman
Heh. Okay, and thanks for sharing all of that. That’s it for episode 11.

Anne Trager
Please share this podcast with anyone who might need to focus a little more. And thank you for subscribing on your favorite podcast platform. Please leave us a review, and we’ll see you in two weeks.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, and until then, you can go to our website, humanpulsepodcast.com. Bye all..