Episode transcription

(Be aware this transcription was done by AI and might contain some mistakes)

Fabrice Neuman
Hi everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast, where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Fabrice Neuman.

Anne Trager
And I'm Anne Trager.

Fabrice Neuman
We are recording this on October 12, 2024.

Anne Trager
Human Pulse is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

Fabrice Neuman
OK, so Anne, we wanted to talk today about digital detoxes and whether they are needed, efficient, or even maybe if it's just a solution looking for a problem. I think we need to add a bit of context. This is a conversation we often have about how we deal with our many devices. OK, I plead guilty. I have more devices than you do. I lots of them, but it's part of my job. I review gadgets, tech gadgets. Okay, so now out there. We can go on with our conversation. Even with all those devices, we try to find a balance. So, we both listened lately to a French podcast called The Scientific Conversation, which first aired on the French radio station, France Culture, so it doesn't get any more French than that, right?

Anne Trager
This is as French as you can get.

Fabrice Neuman
Absolutely. So the topic was, “What is becoming of the conversation?” This in relation to our quote unquote connected world with social medias and the like and smartphones. One key takeaway I took was that basically there was a sociologist in the conversation who basically said that the conversation we can have around a dinner table with friends colleagues is not the same whether we have a smartphone, our smartphone on the or that's one key takeaway, but I think you found many other interesting points in this podcast. You want share to with us?

Anne Trager
Yes, this was a really fascinating podcast. So it was a conversation with a French sociologist named David Le Breton. And he was talking about his book, which is called The End of Conversation, if you were to translate the title into English. And I thought it was really interesting because he's discussing the decline of this art form of face-to-face conversation in a world that is increasingly dominated by digital communication. And he makes this distinction between communication, which is an exchange of information, and conversation, which has other essential elements, notably presence, you know, being there together, which is hard to do when you have the phone dinging on the table, okay.

There is also the notion of shared experience. Again, hard to do with the phone digging in on the table because what you experience in your phone, I'm not experiencing in my space. And then this idea of vulnerability, which comes in a conversation because you're there with somebody else, with an actual person. So that was one idea that I thought was really interesting that he brought up in his book and then in this conversation.

He also talked about how there is a real decline in empathy and an increase in isolation and narcissism because of this decline in our ability to sit and converse with others. He mentions, he talks about the importance of physical interaction, which happens face to face. He emphasizes the role of the body and facial expression and shared moments that allow for genuine connection and understanding.

And then he goes on further and also makes a distinction between information and knowledge. I mean, it's a really, really fascinating.

And then he brings up the idea, which is that if you want to escape from this dictatorship —he calls it a dictatorship; again, kind of very French in the wording—or tyranny, if you will, of the mobile phone, he says, well, don't look at your phone every five minutes. And actually very simple in its nature, the solution that's hard to do.

And then he says something that is very clear. He says, put it at the bottom of your bag or forget it at home. And again, we need to put friction between ourselves and our phones if we actually don't want to look at it every five minutes.

There was one other thing that I really thought interesting to bring up from this conversation that he had is that the host, Etienne Klein, talks about, he draws a parallel with a French philosopher and writer named Paul Valery, who was speaking in the 1930s and 1940s, who talked about at the time brand new other kinds of communications, but not cell phones, right? And he's already talking about a kind of dislocation that is caused by the acceleration of communication technologies and how we could be overwhelmed by the influx of information.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, know, like telegrams and...

Anne Trager
So today, when we have so much information at our fingertips, I mean, more than anybody would have had in a lifetime in previous generations, what is this actually doing? So fascinating, fascinating conversation. Highly recommend it to anybody who understands French. Put it through some new tech to get a summary in English. Maybe the book will come out in English.

He does also suggest some solutions, talks about promoting genuine connection with other human beings and to keep up your skills in critical thinking, very important these days, and meaningful engagement with the world around us. Notably to have, you know, set up phone-free zones.

Maybe it's the dining room table, maybe it's the kitchen, maybe it's someplace else, maybe it's the bedroom, who knows, you know? And he also suggests spending time in nature, like really with the physical world around.

So I'll add one more thing and that's, I will ask our listeners, what is one small act of disconnection you could actually make starting now?

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, that's a good question. It happened to me recently, I mean you know, small acts that can make you more conscious of your, say my potential intoxication. So I recently had a four and a half train ride and I didn't actually have any connections. So to make a long story short, I was mentioning I use lots of devices so I was switching from one phone to the next from the first phone—it actually was a pain, that's another story for another time— but it didn't work and so I was in the train.

In this train there was no Wi-Fi and I didn't have any connection, right? And so basically my phone I could use it to listen to podcasts like I was in 2001 with my iPod, right? It was weird, but still saw myself taking my phone in my hand to check something on it. Well, there was nothing to check because it was not connected, but it was disturbing to me because it seems my body was not able to not use my device just for a few hours.

But then I linked that to something and you did. It's not that you cut yourself from your devices for just a few hours, but be ready people. You did that for 10 days. You actually went on a 10-day meditation retreat. That goes way beyond not using devices, because during the whole period, didn't have your devices, but you actually did not even talk to anyone. So maybe you tell us a bit more about this experience because I think it's fascinating.

Anne Trager
It was such a good question. So yes, I did go away for a 10-day meditation retreat called Vipassana meditation. And, I will admit to it being a rather extreme experience for 10 days, you hand over all of your devices.

Fabrice Neuman
You think?

Anne Trager
You stop doing anything that you do on a habitual basis, and you commit to talking to nobody, not making any eye contact with anybody, and meditating all of the time. A fascinating, fascinating experience. And I highly recommend it to anybody who wants to really have another kind of experience of themselves and of their mind and really digging deeply into how your mind and body connect and interact. Really, really fascinating.

To focus in on our conversation today, what was most surprising to me, I was a little concerned because I love my devices like anybody else. I use them all the time. I'm on my devices all the time. I was worried about that. And actually I didn't miss them at I mean, zero.

Fabrice Neuman
That's a very interesting point, if I may interject. Because in order to be complete, let's tell everyone that you actually did the same thing, a 10-day retreat, 20 years ago. And it was a question because 20 years ago, we didn't have those devices or that many devices. And before you went, we discussed that. Will it be a more difficult thing to do today than it had been 20 years ago and your answer to that is fascinating.

Anne Trager
Exactly. I really didn't know what to expect and I was very surprised. I didn't miss them at all. I mean, literally not at all. Okay. And we all know, I mean, anybody who knows me and I've already talked about it in this podcast is I do control my relationship with my phone at least to everybody's annoyance because I don't respond all the time.

However, I am connected with my devices just like everybody else. So that was a big surprise for me. What happened is that we arrived little bit before it began, before everybody else was there. And immediately when I signed up, you drop your phone in a little bag and it gets closed up. I kind of watched them set it aside in a safe place.

And there was a little heart tug at that particular moment. And then I forgot about it and I went about my way and I started exploring the space that I was going to be in for the next 10 days. And it was raining and it was gray and it was cold and there was nobody there. And I got bored. So my reaction would have been to go to my device and to do something. And I couldn't. Okay.

So there was this initial period where there was like a significant amount of boredom that set in as I was waiting for the program to start. And then once the program started, it was a very structured schedule. So, and yes, when you're sitting in meditation for hours on end, it's possible to get a little bored. So yes. However, because of the structure, it wasn't the same kind of feeling lost, because I knew what I was supposed to be doing and what I had to. That was another aspect.

The return back into speaking was also rather easy. I was surprised. It was easy, came easy. I slipped back into my life immediately. And I found actually that it hit me later, five days later, I started to really feel as if I'm at fundamentally a different pace than. everybody else around whatever that is,

I don't know how long that will las. And I don't know what that means. I don't know what the impact is. Right now it's just an observation that I feel as if I am functioning at a different fundamental level.

So ultimately the world did not end because I did not have my devices. And, the people who didn't know that I was away for 10 days and who actually had to wait until I got back for answers either understood—or potentially did not even notice.

So I think that that is interesting as well. that everybody is in this really, really high pace of things, making the passage of time kind of odd, and feel compelled to respond immediately because that is the nature of this device and this kind of communication and then ultimately does it really change anything? Well, evidently in my life at least it doesn't. Honestly, I feel more calm. I feel less impacted by the general noise and bids that are coming in from every direction.

Other effects are that surprisingly I am not especially more focused than I was before and potentially even a little bit less focused than I was before. So I'm curious about that to see what's going on. What's shifting. I am slower at doing my morning mini crosswords than I was before. Okay, I mean, significantly slower. I told you my pace is different right now.

Fabrice Neuman
Hehehehehe. Yeah.

Anne Trager
And my routines, the routines that I had in place are all messed up. So I'm trying to figure out how to get back into routines that are helpful for me. So this is a good opportunity for me, at least to change and to rethink my routines while I'm at it.

What I also learned is that what really helps in this kind of experience, if you want to do any kind of detox or something as extreme as it, to actually tell people and to set up systems for there to be an easy return into the real world and I did that and I, you know, so I didn't have, you know, thousand emails waiting for me and so forth when I got back.

I mean, I had systems set up so that I didn't have to worry about my return. I also did a progressive slow reduction in my device use. Or I tried at least prior to going on the retreat, ans was not I particularly successful.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, I think it's more linked to actually the question we were asking ourselves before you left, which was, are you going to actually miss a lot of those devices because it's a new compared to 20 years ago? So you tried that. And as we saw, the result was that you didn't miss your devices at all.

Anne Trager
There we go. I think there are a lot of intermediary solutions, that you don't need to go away for 10 days to do a digital detox, that you could even just detox a few minutes every day. You could turn off your devices for a period of time and see what happens. You could take a weekend. You could do a day. You could just turn off your notifications, and it will potentially serve similar purposes.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, so thank you. I think everybody can agree that it's a bit of an extreme experience that you undertook. And like Vipassana goes way beyond just a digital detox, obviously. So, but then still the question remains, which is, do we need digital detoxes? Because it's been a phrase that we've heard for quite a long time and... you know, every now and then it comes back like in the news and because everybody says, so we're so entrenched in our social media, do we need digital detoxes?

Anne Trager
I can't really speak to the word “need.” I suspect from my experience as a human potential coach that's going to be an individual choice. There are however, some numbers out there that are—I don't want to use the word “concerning,” but that help, that make me reconsider the place of devices in our lives.

Based on some data from 2023, so recent data, the average global internet user spends three hours and 50 minutes per day on their phone.

On average, people check their phones 58 times per day.

Fabrice Neuman
I actually thought it was way more than that. So I'm kind of surprised at how low it, yeah.

Anne Trager
Yeah, but it's an average number. And then the other number that I found is that people spend an average of six hours and 40 minutes per day on screens across all devices. So think of it this. Eight hours of sleeping, a third of your time sleeping, nearly seven hours, so nearly a third of your time on devices. And then...third of your time for whatever else. So like I said earlier, I'm like everybody else. I love the devices. I love the access to information. I love the distraction that they, that they afford me, I am not necessarily a proponent of digital minimalism. I do however, want to use my devices intentionally.

Which harks back a little bit to what you were saying. There you were in the train, you couldn't even use it and you were just going through it out of this habit.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. I'd like to say that, you know, so the screen thing, it's been discussed basically since the invention of TV, right? And before screens, we would say TV and like, are watching TV one, two, three, four, five hours a day. So why and stuff like that? Thing is, the multiplication of the number of devices with screens. I think maybe just to play devil's advocate kind of changes the way we have to look at it, pun not intended. Meaning of course we use screens because basically everything we do nowadays involves screens. I mean, even, you you use your electric kettle in the morning your water and there's a screen on it, that's what we have. There's a screen so we can choose the temperature on it. So does that count as screen time? Does everything count as quote unquote screen time just because there's a screen? Maybe it's a stupid question, but you know.

Anne Trager
You're right. I think it's a really good question. And I think that the fact that there is this multiplication digital interfaces with the world around us, that does change as...

We mentioned it is changing the way we converse with other people and the way we interact with other people. So I'm not so sure that the number of hours we spend or even how we use them is as pertinent as how we choose to use them or not choose.

What kind of awareness do we bring into the actual use of it? Let's be clear. With the devices themselves, there are a very, very large number of engineers and behavioral specialists who have worked very hard on making these tools really easy to use and really hard to resist.

So I want to be aware of that, so that I am not unconsciously like just feeding in, just using them because they are designed that way.

There are studies out there, new studies that show that overusing technology is bad for your sleep, it's bad for your relationships, it's bad for your productivity, it's bad for your self-esteem. There are not clear studies that show that digital detox is the solution. We know that blue light from screens, excessive blue light from screens is not what our eyes are used to in the natural world and that it does mess up your natural sleep-wake cycle. There are solutions for that.

We know as well that overuse of whatever that means based on the studies, these are studies, we have to look at the studies to find out what that means, overuse, but can lead to narcissism, anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem, among teens. These are new studies, they're out there, pretty clear.

And we know that in order to be really, really productive, at least to go into that golden flow state where you are really super productive, it helps not to have distractions and these devices are very distracting. So setting them aside. So I suppose if we go back to this question of detox, do we need it? I don't know if we need it, but there are certain benefits. One is that it gives you an excuse to actually take a step back.

If you detox, if you say, I'm going on a detox and you tell your people, then people are not going to expect an immediate response because you're detoxing. I think that's probably the best reason to do a detox is that you just have a good excuse. A good excuse to step away from your devices and look at the world differently.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmph.

And I think also it gives up, when you say that, I think that's the experience you had, which is you tell people and then people think about themselves and then, maybe I should do that too.

Anne Trager
Exactly. So there's a ripple effect.

I also think stepping away from your devices is a way to tune back into yourself, just your body and your natural rhythms. It can be relaxing. It may alleviate depression, again, in people who are susceptible to that. That's what the studies say.

It may improve focus and attention span. And I know a lot of people who were like that. And it may improve sleep. So for me, those are good enough reasons to give it a try.

The reasons against it would be that it apparently does not have the digital detoxing in general, does not really have any huge impact on life satisfaction. So it might be more trouble than it's worth. It only has a limited effect on stress. And you could feel some anxiety from fear of missing out from FOMO.

So if I were to conclude, the truth is that nobody really needs detox. And what I want to include in my life is intentional use. Again, I keep going back to this intentional use. It's not so much about detoxing, it's about being aware of how we use these devices and making sure that that comes from a choice, not from habit or addiction or whatever else. And some people need a digital detox to get to that place.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, that's a lot of food for thought. Thank you for that. I think it does help me to make sure I want to think about my usage. This episode in the train, really, I think it's going to stick with me because it was like, so you're having your phone in your hand. It was on the table. You cannot do anything with it, except maybe pausing the podcast you're listening to, why is it in your hand? And you just said. intentional use is really the question.

Anne Trager
So I suppose I would throw out to people who are listening a challenge to experiment times without to observe what the impact of your devices is actually having on your conversations and on your relationships, to observe how often you reach for your phone, just to gather some information, some intel and start experimenting and see if there's some way that you can improve your wellbeing by changing your relationship to your devices.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, and maybe suggest to your friends, like good friends, know, OK, so why don't we try this for the next dinner we have together? Let's keep our phones in our pockets in our bag in next room and see how it goes.

Anne Trager
Yeah, for example. And share with us what effect that has had on you.

I think you had some good news for us today.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, absolutely. That would be cool. Yeah. So, you know, so that's always the thing, which is, so we talk about living well with technology, sometimes living well, maybe better without it. But let's not forget that technology can be and is a wonderful thing. And particularly in time of needs.

Lately, the world obviously followed the two hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Helene and Hurricane Milton. Those storms are awful and people need technology to reach out and to make sure, either to make sure that people they know in the in these geographical locations are okay, or when you're in there, you need to reach out to say that you're okay, right? And so lately, it's been a couple of years, cell phones are now some, you know, recent models have this possibility to connect through satellites directly, to send messages, to call for help. And so it was more when it was presented two years ago, basically by Apple on their iPhone 14 models.

It was shown as, so you go on a hike and you're in the middle of nowhere and you fall and you hurt yourself and there's no service. And so you can call or send a help message, a call for help message. But then during those hurricanes, it appeared very clearly that sometimes you're in the middle of all the antennas have been struck down, this technology, satellite communication directly from your phone, actually saved lives. And so this is what exactly, for me, technology is all about. It can

And it can be wonderful. Make sure if you have a cell phone, a smartphone that is pretty recent, make sure that you know how this features work. If you have an iPhone 14, 15 or 16 that works but there are now Android phones that are starting to offer this feature. So make sure that you know how it works just in case you need Hopefully you won't, but if you do, but if make sure that you know how.

Anne Trager
Well, thank you, Fabrice, for sharing information. I did not know that my phone was capable of satellite communication. I'm glad to know it’s possible.

Anne Trager
That's it for episode three. Thanks for listening. You can find all the links mentioned in this episode in the show notes directly in your podcast app. And don't forget to go to our website, humanpulsepodcast.com to find out more information all about our previous episodes. And also you can send us some feedback.

Fabrice Neuman
Thanks for subscribing, sharing, and please leave a review. It helps people find our podcast.

Anne Trager
So we do have some news, Fabrice, at the end of this episode three. We started monthly and already we are having so much fun that we are upping the pace to every two weeks. So see you in two weeks.

Fabrice Neuman
Absolutely. See you in two weeks. Bye