Episode transcription

(Be aware this transcription was done by AI and might contain some mistakes)

Fabrice Neuman
Hi everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Fabrice Neuman.

Anne Trager
And I'm Anne Trager.

Fabrice Neuman
We are recording this on October 27th, 2024.

Anne Trager
Human pulse is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

Fabrice Neuman
So, first of all, I wanted to do a little follow up after our previous episode. We mentioned your meditation retreat for 10 days. You went on a retreat without devices, with talking to nobody for 10 days. Let me emphasize that for 10 days, right? You did mention during that episode that your whole rhythm had changed after coming back from this meditation. Even your whole relationship to the passage of time and your pace had changed. So I wanted to make sure, how are you feeling now?

Anne Trager
That's such a good question, Fabrice. Thanks for asking. I would like to reassure everybody, I am fine. So, I have noted a few things. One is that I am much quicker to get into the present moment. It means I'm a whole lot less focused on the past and on the future. This is great for my job as a coach. I can really tune into my clients. It also makes me a little bit less reactive. It makes me worry a little bit less about things past or future, which is kind of cool.

It is also true that I have a different relationship to time as if it were no longer the focus. I had already noticed a little bit less preoccupation with time before the retreat, clearly for me at least, related to a long time meditation practice. It's not that time has stopped. Let's get clear. It still goes just as quickly as it does for everybody else. But my focus is elsewhere, which creates this really unique temporal experience. I suspect that's also making my brain use a little bit less energy on focusing on time. on “OMG, I have so much to do in so little time.” And maybe being, I wish, and maybe putting that energy to something else. In any case, I feel lighter it's a bit odd because...

Fabrice Neuman
You wish.

Anne Trager
most of the world I encounter seems to be singularly focused on the passage of time and how quickly it goes. So there's this really weird sensation of not always being at the same pace. I don't mind. It's kind of cool. I'm interested. I'm observing it. That's what you do in meditation.

I've also found that that whole experience loosened my grip or rather loosened the grip of my inner disciplinarian who regulates my very carefully laid habits and routines. This is kind of a relief and it opens me up to be a little bit more spontaneous. It feels good. I'd even say I'm a little happier. So the question now is which habits and routines will bring the most value to me so I could focus on them and then how can I get the inner disciplinarian to only focus on those and not all the other ones? So that's sort of my rundown.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, that's very interesting because I understood that a lot about routines having fewer routines or having your schedule being changed your ways. say it really changed. so you're still in the lookout, on the lookout for finding your new ways, basically.

And I thought it was very interesting. I thought it was very important to come back to your meditation experience for that because essence, it's a approach, Which can have broad consequences and changing habits, your habits in this particular But that's what it is. so going back to it was important. it's also what led to today's subject, right? So why don't you tell us more about

Anne Trager
That's true. And I really do believe that habits and routines are really foundational for us as human beings to manage our energy in certain ways. And I also believe that to do them right, you have to shift them around from time to time and loosen them up from time to time. Becomes really interesting. So what happened to me is that because I've been less on my old habits and looking around for what's the new scenario going to look like,

I have spent a little bit more time on one of my favorite pastimes, which is reading fiction. And I'm currently reading The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells and really enjoying this series. And I thought we could talk about it today.

It's told from the perspective of a cyborg security. And this bot is designed for protecting humans. And the storyline, I don't want to give much away, but you learn about this very early is that it hacks its way to freedom from its overlord megacorporation. And then in these diaries, it shares with the reader its love of media streaming. I can really relate to that.

Fabrice Neuman
Hehehehe

Anne Trager
Okay. And, and also how unpredictable human beings can be, which I can also relate to.

Fabrice Neuman
Let me interject here. So we're talking about a robot, a special kind of robot, but
already relating to it. And that's exactly what the subject is.

Anne Trager
Completely.

Well, exactly. And the author really brings this in really well as well. I mean, she does a really good job on that. So, you know, what I find really interesting is that what I wanted to talk about today is that the worlds described in this book are populated by all manner of bots and, augmented humans and other humans with many different types of identity.

So I find it to be a really fun meditation about how we as humans might interact with advanced AI constructs and how they might interact with us, particularly when they have some of the human-ness, human foibles, if you will, that come with having human parts as described in this particular fiction. So we can imagine, I mean, obviously we're so far away from that right now. This is not the reality, but it's an interesting premise.

Fabrice Neuman
Well. Yeah, let's emphasize the fact that as of today, it's still science fiction.

Anne Trager
It's still science fiction, but it's a fun contemplation as what would this mean. Because it really brings out the whole messy complexity of humaneness, which is one of the topics of this podcast. And it makes me think of the struggles that like today, when none of this even exists, we face, and I see in my coaching with diversity and equity and inclusion initiatives, which are all about how we deal with different kinds of people.

You know, we recognize these as important as having strategic value, as having a positive impact on creativity and diversity and sorry, that, and the bottom line. So this is, you know, diversity of different kinds of people, different kinds entities can have a positive effect. And still it's really challenging for people. And, and there are so many things and, and “isms” that get in the way on a daily basis of creating this acceptance of diversity. So I'm thinking if we can't do it with other people, how the heck are we going to do it with tech-augmented people or with tech entities? And I throw that out to you because you're the tech guy.

Fabrice Neuman (07:46)
Well, thank you. I think first of all, the thing is that's what can be very interesting about science fiction, thinking about what can happen next. That's exactly the reason. And even with older books, you know, we talked already about Isaac Asimov's books. They still have questions not answered yet.

We talk about them. And so this series is very interesting for that. it does go well with what's happening today with all those chatbots we now use more broadly, almost like daily for some of us, because have a very interesting effect, which is we are re-asking ourselves the question of how we interact, period. Not only with other humans, with other something else, we still have a need for a definition, Because we're going back to artificial intelligence, whatever that is, because I don't think we still have a definition for that either. We’re talking about AI all day long. We know it's not intelligence. We know it's artificial. Is it not intelligent? Is it...

just another kind of intelligence. We don't know that. The thing is, as humans, we do anthropomorphize it. There are... bots, are construct, but we are so used and we are wired to interact with other people that we see those things as not people, but something to relate to.

And the other thing is we brushed on it in our first episode, for example, talking about the friend.com pendant, which is this thing that you can have around your neck and you can talk to and it can answer. And as the name implies, it's a friend you can have with you all the time, but it's a machine.

In a machine than in a human being some points they want to talk about subjects that are difficult for them.

Interestingly, it's also a topic that is appearing in the Murderbot diaries, but in this is also what you wanted to talk about, I think.

Anne Trager
Well, yeah, exactly. Because there's this whole thing where the bot is struggling with belonging, with being different. And this whole notion of belonging is really, really important to human beings. I think of that with what you just said how sometimes it might be easier to speak to a machine because it's non-judgmental. Or we think of it in that way.

And so we immediately belong because, well, we're the human or something. I don't know. Why would we be immediate belong to that like group, that mini group that's formed? I don't know. This is a question that just came to mind for me, but belonging in any case is really important to humans and belonging to specific groups is part of that in connection to what I just said.

I'm reminded of the work by Jamil Zaki, who is a professor of neuroscience or social neuroscience at Stanford And he wrote a really interesting book I recommend, which is called The War for Kindness. And there in which he speaks about systems and how we are a herd species, which means that we are deeply affected by other people. And he also then, as the title suggests, talks about how we are wired for kindness with other people. what this means is that when we notice other people acting kindly, then it makes us want to be more kind, for example. and he suggests then that we could incentivize this, we could highlight and amplify kind behaviors to make them stickier and to have more of a ripple effect.

And I think that's really interesting. And this actually comes out in a few parts of these books where you see this group behavior impacting bots as well. So it's really quite interesting. So there's that part of belonging. I was also reminded of a recent podcast I just listened to, which is a little less optimistic perhaps, but also still really important.

The podcast is Adam Grant's rethinking podcast. And it's the episode that he did with the US Surgeon General whose name I'm not thinking of right now, but you'll find it in the show the Surgeon General looks at health very holistically. And in the podcast, he talks a lot about the loneliness epidemic and social media, as well as the foundations of belonging and wellness. And he highlights the role of things like service and purpose and belonging in achieving fulfillment and happiness. So there is this really foundational thing about it. In in the podcast, the Surgeon General calls us to really prioritize relationships and to cultivate human connection.

Fabrice Neuman
That's interesting. The thing is, guess to me, what you say about Adam Grant and his podcast is more, it's closer to reality than being wired for kindness. Maybe it's just because of the news and we also see so much news that are not about kindness, the opposite, that it's sometimes difficult to be reassured, basically, I'd say.

Anne Trager
So I really do encourage you to read the book because it is based on science. We are actually wired for kindness and negativity bias, which the media monetizes. So bringing out all the negative stuff so that we look at that rather than focusing on the moments we're kind. I mean, in my life, if I look around me,

Fabrice Neuman
Yes.

Anne Trager
I know a whole lot more people who are kind than those who are unkind. And maybe I'm lucky or maybe I just see that. Maybe it's part of my rose colored glasses.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, I would agree with that. So not the rose colored glasses part. But I think it's a story for another time, but we'll probably talk at some point about the news and how to get news and how to filter out the bubble if there is a bubble and stuff like that. we'll talk about that. so prioritizing relationships and human connection, it's very important. So not that I want to take a

Anne Trager
Hahaha

Fabrice Neuman
dark turn, but this sense of belonging you were talking about and we are all looking for can also unfortunately lead to drama. And we saw that in this 14 year old boy in Florida called Sewell Setzer. He was using an online chatbot called character.ai that lets you choose personalized fictional characters to talk to. And unfortunately, this young man committed suicide on February 28th of this year. And his mother is suing the online service saying that the conversations he had with the bot led him to abusive and sexual interactions leading to his suicide.

Let me just add that he chose as a character to talk to Daenerys Targaryen. I'm sorry about the fans of Game of Thrones series because I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that correctly. But this is the character he chose. Let's not go into details about his conversations with this character. You'll find in the show notes a link to a description.

the whole story from the NBC News website. What I wanted to say is that it's not the first time we hear about someone going very personal with a chatbot. And it can be dramatic, as we saw, obviously, luckily it's not always and it's not often that dramatic, but it's sometimes

As far as I'm concerned, a bit just ridiculous. Like, you know, I keep talking about this story of this journalist from the New York Times who described his conversations like hours long conversations with a chatbot all the way to the end where he says that she, the chatbot was gendered at that time, fell in love with him and basically told him to divorce from his wife so she can be with him, right? So I'm still unclear today whether he really believed it or if it was just click bait. We don't know that. I don't know that. But I think it serves as a reminder of how we relate to technology when we don't completely understand how it works and which is exactly what chatbots are all about today, you know?

Anne Trager
Yes.

Fabrice Neuman
In the words of the science fiction author, C. Clarke, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And maybe in the case of chatbots, indistinguishable from a human being.

Anne Trager
Hmm. I think it's really interesting the point you're bringing up. And so I'd like to circle around to what, what do we do then to live well with technology and in, this sort of murky space of what is it? I would suggest that we understand human beings about as much as we understand chatbots and potentially we even understand chatbots better than we understand human beings.

That said, so what do we do? And I think there's this notion of being aware and being in a place of choice all of the time. So constantly going back to, who or what is it that I am conversing with and what does it mean and what are the implications?

These are really interesting questions that we're bringing up. It also makes me think of how astonishing it is that we are so quick to trust technology, much quicker to trust technology than we are to trust another human being. I mean, think about how just today, the tech that you use, you use it to manage your daily lives and needs. don't really think, a lot of us don't really think anyway about, you know, who's behind all of this, where my data is going, you know, can, is it really going to tell me the right time to do my things? I mean, we just implicitly... think that our tech is infallible when, well, until it isn't. So, and I will invite those of you who haven't listened to the episode about the vacuum that didn't work, the robot vacuum that didn't work that I will never trust again. And that's what's so interesting is that actually the basis of trust in technology is

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
It's not about intentions or moral agency or anything like technology it is when fulfills its function as expected and it does so. Whereas when we trust in human beings, we're always assessing intentions and integrity and whether the person is actually going to be trustworthy.

It's all based on building relationships, on past interactions, on how we perceive their character to be. It involves emotional factors. It involves social factors. There's empathy. There's understandings. It's very dynamic. It's always changing and it's context dependent. We develop it through communication and shared experiences and mutual understanding, none of which really applies to how we deal with technology now. So in effect, it's normal that we trust it more quickly and potentially we should be questioning that a little bit more.

Fabrice Neuman
I agree. I would say that chat bots blur the line a little bit more because, and even more so when we just use them as, you know, through our keyboards and screens, so we don't actually interact with a face or with a body moving. So we don't have all those signs that we can interpret and that we do interpret when we talk to another human being, even without knowing we're doing. And the line can be blurred. And for example, so we think that the chatbots can develop, you love and feelings and stuff like that. I would say the line is even more blurred when we have humans trying to
make us trust robots even more.

I think you know where I'm going with that. Lately, Tesla and Elon presented again, I would say, a new line of robots. Thier Optimus robots. we could see, so they are humanoid robots. They look or they are a copy of humans. They have two legs, two arms, a head, a torso, and they're so humanoids. and they walk around and it was like the promise is that for in the next couple of years, we will be able to buy one of those for, you know, $30,000. And the, can have that home for, you know, serving us with whatever we need, like a beer or something else, right? Which was weird.

The thing is, what I wanted to say about it is that unfortunately it's difficult to trust their new announcements because very soon after the whole we learned that all the robots we saw were just were not autonomous. Basically, they can walk around easily. That's OK. That's mastered. But they don't talk. They don't interact as they were shown to be interacting.

We saw videos with people talking to them, playing with them, just chatting, like shooting the breeze. there were robots are not capable of doing that yet. And at least not those robots from Tesla. And so it's interesting. So the trust issue here is not with technology, but it's with the humans presenting the robots. And I think it's too bad because we can have robots that we can trust and that can help us probably more than robots in the humanoid form, if you will. to say about that is, aside from all those robots that are shown to look like us, there are other robots. So we already know that we have robots like building our cars, they are not humanoids, right? They are just like arms, mechanical arms that can solder and what have you.

So I would encourage people to go see a video from the Veritasium YouTube channel. There will be the link in the show notes, of course. The title of this video is The Real Reason Robots Shouldn't Look Like Humans.

And it's a fascinating demonstration of what robots can be aside from being humanoid because when we design robots that are not like us, they can do so many more things than we can. And so I think it's a good way to think about robots a different way and not just of something that can look like us.

Anne Trager
And I like the point that you're bringing up and that, you know, there's a form factor involved here and that evidently just having a human shaped body is not what it means to be human because there's all the rest that goes into human communication that we're not there yet with humans and that potentially the robots can do something else like things we can't do because we have our human body and so they can have a different shape and do other things. Thank you for bringing that out.

So I think that's it for today's episode. I believe we have reached our time for today. Thanks everybody for listening. You can find all of the links mentioned in this episode in the show notes directly in your podcast app. And don't forget to go to our website, humanpulsepodcast.com to find out more information and all of our previous episodes. We also love to receive feedback, so don't hesitate to send us some.

humanpulsepodcast.com.

Fabrice Neuman
Thank you everyone for subscribing, sharing, and please leave review if you can, and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

Anne Trager
Bye.