Episode transcription

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Fabrice Neuman
Hi everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Fabrice Neuman.

Anne Trager
and I'm Anne Trager.

Fabrice Neuman
We are recording this on December 22nd, 2024.

Anne Trager
Human pulse is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started. So today, Fabrice, I wanted to talk about sleep first of all, it is the number one performance enhancer that exists and allows us to live well with or without technology. Okay? And also I have a surprise for listeners who stay till the end.

Fabrice Neuman
Okay, so let's make sure that they listen until the end.

You do yourself know a thing or two about that, right? And because unfortunately you had to go through kind of bad nights for several years, but also you were able to change the quality of your sleep through different methods, so we'll talk about that.

Anne Trager
Yeah, absolutely. And I know a whole lot about tossing and turning and longing for sleep at night and roaming the house and waking up tired. I mean, literally, I really, really, really messed up my sleep at one point and it took me several years to get it back and I fixed it. Now I sleep an average of seven hours and 20 minutes a although it's dropped in this past year. So I'm working on bringing it back up, with 12 % more or less deep sleep, which is fantastic for me at my age and, I've gone through with my sleep and about 18 % REM sleep.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
Which is also fantastic. And I know all of this because of my tech. So when it comes to tech, because our topic is living well with technology, when it comes to tech and sleep, there are two key categories of tech to look at. The tech that will track your sleep. And you have all different kinds of form factors for that. And we'll go into some details later, but you have...

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
rings and wristbands and bed covers and some non-touch monitors out there. Tracking sleep is one thing. And then the second kind of tech sets out to improve your sleep in one way or another. And, and I'll talk a little bit more about that again later on.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, I think we can dive into that directly because I think you almost tried them all, right?

Anne Trager
Well, not really, actually. So first of all, it began, and this is actually a little bit your fault because for Christmas in 2018, you gave in to my request. I asked Santa for an Oura ring. What is an Oura ring? This is the Oura ring. Okay.

Fabrice Neuman
All right.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, so let's make something clear. So it was upon your request, so it's not exactly totally my fault, right? And for those who don't have the image, so you have to describe what you're showing.

Anne Trager
Yeah, yeah, details, details. Okay.

Yes. So the Oura ring is a smart ring with tiny sensors that track all kinds of data from your sleep. And then in the morning it will give you the data and it will tell you something about what they call readiness give you some suggestions about, know, what you should be doing today and how much activity. Sometimes if you're really low on the readiness score, it's going to tell you, "Hey, maybe you should rest and relax." And other times it will tell you, whoa, go, you know? So I had, actually, this is the second Oura ring. So it gives 2018 was a long time ago and they upgraded in between. At the time, you know, it was really sharp and I longed for it and I'm a biohacker. So it was really important for me because for biohackers having an Oura ring was and still is a little bit of a sign of recognition. And I remember having to wait, you know, I got it for Christmas, but I had to wait until February for it to arrive. And I literally dreamed about it improving my sleep immeasurably. Sorry for the pun. Couldn't resist, right?

Fabrice Neuman
Would you say that being able to dream about it already helped you sleep at that point?

Anne Trager
But potentially, potentially, yeah, maybe that's all that I needed and we all know that the placebo effect is huge, right?

But anyway, so I started in 2018 and the Oura ring was not very well known at the time. And I remember in 2021, I stumbled upon this article in The New Yorker that actually mentioned the Oura ring. And I thought, wow, okay, it's come out into the light. Okay, this says something about me and my reading habits and so on and so forth. But anyway. That the Oura ring had made it into the New Yorker was something of a big deal for me. What I found, what I found right from the beginning is that it made tracking really easy and fun. And I will talk a little bit later on about why tracking is important, but anyway, let's about what happened to me when I got this Oura ring. It got me really focused on how the various tips and tricks that I was trying and applying to my sleep, how they really changed things.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
And potentially I got a little too focused on it. I remember my teenage daughter telling me at times, she would tease me every morning. And I occasionally suggest that I answer the, how did you sleep question before I looked at the ring. Okay. I mean the ring data. Okay. So, and how right she was. I mean, this is a real thing. Sometimes we can get a little obsessed about the data and not so much about what it's allowing us to do.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anne Trager
And I've been through different phases about being obsessed with my data. First, it was deep sleep and at other times it was my heart rate variability. And right now it's my resting heart rate, my lowest resting heart rate at night. So, you know, there are times and then, you know, obsession is perhaps a big word for what's happening is that it allows me to focus my attention in on one thing that I like to be shifting, okay, in a direction.

You don't need a ring sleep your to track your sleep. First of all, you can just track it on your subjective feeling of how well you, you slept. Sleep specialists have been doing that for ages. There are different...

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
questions you can ask yourself that are used regularly and that can really help you because ultimately it's about how you feel it when you wake up. That's important. you can track your sleep with your smartphone using apps such as Sleep Space or Sleep Cycle. These will track your sleep based on, the noises you make and the movements you make. they will also help you wake up at just the right time in your sleep cycle. You can also use performance trackers like the Whoop or you can use a which admittedly gives you the most bang for your buck because you also get all those watch functions with it, which the Oura Ring only tracks your sleep and your. So, you know, those are some of the options that are out there for tracking your sleep. Fabrice, I believe you use your watch, right?

Fabrice Neuman
I do sometimes, probably not as much as you do with your Oura ring. But the thing is, it's a bit less comfortable wear while you sleep, obviously.

Some people already do sleep with their watches, whether they're smart watches or not, but it's not as comfortable. So I'm using an Apple Watch as I show here to the It got more comfortable with the Apple Watch Series because it is a little bit thinner, so it's more comfortable. Still, there's another thing.

When you talk about the Apple Watch, it's the battery management. Apple didn't make a lot of progress in that area. So basically you do have to it every day.

It's pretty good at telling you that it needs to be charged before you go to you do have to find 20 minutes, 30 minutes to charge it and then wear it again. So it's not as good. Anyway.

Anne Trager
Hmm.

yeah. The Oura ring lasts several days, mine a little bit less now that it's getting a little older. And this charging thing is so important. I mean, there were times I will put the ring to charge because you have to charge it from time to and then totally forget about it and maybe two days later say, wait, where's my ring? Why don't I have my data?

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm.

Well, it speaks to the fact that the ring can be forgotten whether you wear it or not, right? So the watch is not very good in that area.

Anne Trager
Yes, exactly. And for me, the ring is much more comfortable. I tried with a watch at one point and I can't even wear the watch during the day. I find it uncomfortable.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

That's something else.

Okay, so you're really not a good candidate for the watch, that's for sure. thing is, with the Apple Watch Series 10 when I got it, I was pretty good at wearing it for a 30-day period because I wanted to try the sleep apnea detection feature which came with the watch OS 11.

Anne Trager
No.

Hmm.

Fabrice Neuman
that you can use on the Apple Watch Series 10 or Series And for it to work, you need to really wear it for 30 days. It doesn't have to be 30 days in a row, but the feature needs 30 days worth of data So I did

Thankfully, I didn't get any alert notification saying that I might have sleep apnea. Okay. I was happy about that, but then it gave me more details about my it detects the heart rate, the lowest and the highest during the

What I that of all, you don't need to look at your data all the time to know whether you slept okay or not. But having data on a longer period of time is good what can impede on your sleep or make your sleep better. Obviously you can right away see differences in your sleep quality you had alcohol for dinner.

Anne Trager
Mm.

Fabrice Neuman
or not, if you had a late dinner or not, like that, you can see the influence on all those things. would also, and this is something the ring doesn't do, the watch or watch equivalent is a very good wake up system because when it monitors your sleep, it obviously monitors your sleep cycles. And so you can ask it to wake you up at the end of a cycle instead of a potentially in the middle of one when you just choose a specific time to be woken up. And so with a watch like this, you can still tell it to wake you up at 6 30 in the morning, like at the latest, but it will keep a window of 30 minute window between six and six 30 to wake you up at the best possible time compared to you based on your sleep cycles. And I think that's very nice. And it can wake you up with just a tap on the wrist, you know, with no sound, which I prefer as well. think it's a less intrusive, you know, softer and I like that. And I think it's very efficient for that.

Anne Trager
Hmm.

You mentioned a lot of things. I think that wake up at the right time can be really helpful for a lot of people. regulated my sleep to such an extent now that I don't need an alarm anymore. don't, you know, this isn't an issue for me, but I do still remember that alarm ringing in the middle of the cycle and you're glued to the bed. It feels like gravity has been doubled or something like that. You can't move.

And that's generally a sign of it being really, really the wrong time in your sleep cycle to be waking up.

You also mentioned sleep apnea, and I think that's a fantastic feature for the Apple Watch. I know there's some data on the newer systems of the Oura as well that allow you to detect that, because if you have sleep apnea, it is significantly serious of an issue to go see a sleep doctor and get it fixed because it will just mess you up, mess your entire health up and shorten your lifespan. So let's mention it, you know, if you have sleep apnea, do something about it. Okay?

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm. Yeah. And let me be clear about that. So if the watch detects sleep apnea, it will just tell you, you might have sleep apnea. Please go see a doctor. You know, it's always very important to remind people that these kinds of tools are not medical tools. You know, they can help you detect a problem or not. And when you think you have something, then go see a specialist is so important.

Anne Trager
Exactly.

Fabrice Neuman
Not to, quote unquote, self-medicate at least too much. If there's a problem, many times you need to see a specialist.

Anne Trager
So in speaking of what these tools are good for, they're tracking tools. The ones that we're talking about right now are tracking tools. And I'd like to really talk about this tracking thing. Tracking can help us tune into, into our own personal feedback system. Okay. Because ultimately, I mean, we all know when we've had a bad night's sleep.

We don't need a ring to say you've had a bad night's sleep. What it does, however, is it brings our attention to In sometimes a fun way and mostly in a regular way and with something that we can, some data that we can actually use.

It allows us to see where our baseline is. It allows us to, you know, if we're experimenting with things to see if those experiments are actually having an impact. This is what's interesting about the tracking. allows us to fine tune and to Observing and recording can help us really to contribute to change. Okay. There's some things which is called Pearson's law, which is attributed to a mathematician named Carl Pearson. And he says "that which is measured and reported improves." So it's the idea that when you know your numbers, you can, you know, look at the results and it does have an impact and you're going to be able to then course correct and make a change.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
And tracking also brings your sustained attention to a specific topic, in this case, sleep. How much of us just fight through it and all of that. But if you have a ring or a watch that is telling you with a little thing, you know, in the morning, say, Hey, whoa, watch out. Then you're going to actually pay a little bit of attention. And we all know that our attention is very precious right now because it is pulled in So tracking your sleep can shift your unconscious, you know, shift things from an unconscious habit zone into you know, into a focus And this, in my opinion, is benefit number one.

Also, it allows you to see patterns, okay, to identify areas where there are improvements or problems. For example, I noticed that my resting heart rate was shooting up and so now I'm working on bringing it down, okay? It's important.

I believe when using tracking also to filter the information based on whatever it is you're trying to do. I mean, if we try to do too much at once, in any case, we can't do it.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, that talks about the scientific method. If you want to be efficient, you need to change one thing at a time because as soon as you change two or more things, then you don't know what works. So, you know.

Anne Trager
So, you're right, yes. And I totally believe in throwing everything at whatever the problem is, you know, because there are 17 different things you can try for your sleep and maybe it's going to be a combination of different things that's actually going to work. So, I'm of two minds about that. I don't have a very scientific approach. I have a kitchen sink approach, you know, I just throw it all in there and...and track the change, okay? But anyway, so again, that's just me, okay? I don't really have a problem with I do think, however, it's interesting to ask why you're doing what you're doing. Why are you tracking what you're tracking?

Fabrice Neuman
True. So we talked a lot about tracking. You mentioned at the beginning that there are also technologies or techniques that can actually help create a better environment for sleep. So why don't we talk a bit about that.

Anne Trager
Well, so yeah, there are other kinds of technologies out there that are used specifically in the sleep area. Wome, the most prevalent are related to, first of all, temperature regulation, because temperature regulation actually really has an impact on our sleep. Just recently our heating went out and so it was really cold at night and I was sleeping better. I actually saw an improvement on my sleep score. Okay. So.

You know, now I have to kind of find the comfort zone. But anyway, there is tech out there. Like heater doesn't have to stop working for you to actually experiment with this. Okay?

So the thing is, is that basically we sleep better we go to quicker and have deeper sleep when at the beginning of the night when it's cold. And then later on in the night, when we're doing more dreaming, we actually dream better, you know, when it's a little bit warmer. And actually your body regulates that temperature all by itself because our body has extraordinary inner technology. Thank you very much.

There are tools that can help you do this. And right now the big player in this particular field brand which is called Eight Sleep like the number, And it's very expensive and it's like this mattress solution that will do all the tracking and will make all of these micro variations in temperature based on where you are in your sleep cycle and so on and so forth. People rave about

And on their website, they claim that you can get as much as an hour more sleep every night in the same period of time. I'm assuming in the same period of time. So it's quite the technology if you want to invest in something like this.

So I've done some much simpler and less expensive tech to adjust the temperature of the bed in which I sleep. In summer, when got to be really, really, really, really hot here and I was having trouble sleeping, I just took some of those ice blocks that you put in the freezer to put in a cooler, you know, when you're going someplace. Well, I just...Had a bunch of them and I'd take a couple out and I'd put them in my bed and I'd sleep with them, you know.

Another area where you get a lot of tech is light related because light is also very important to your sleep. So some of the tech that comes in is in the form of these lamps that they're called sunrise lamps that will bring in just the right of... amount of light to mimic the rising sun in your room and to wake you up in the morning.

Fabrice Neuman
Hm.

Anne Trager
And also, well, okay, where tech comes into play here is that we are, animals that are regulated by the light that we get in our eyes. Okay. So, waking up in the morning and actually going outside where you get full spectrum light, it doesn't have to be sunny. Can be rainy and cloudy and dark, and you still get more light in your eyes than you ever, ever inside because windows will filter it. So the idea is to go outside and get full spectrum light in your eyes as early as possible in the morning, as close to sunrise as possible. And this will regulate your circadian rhythm, which will in turn help you sleep better the following night. Okay. Which is extraordinary. Okay. So get outside.

Fabrice Neuman

In other words, get outside people.

Anne Trager
So that's the first aspect of light to really keep in mind, and that's related to the amount red light in the sun's the proportion of red light, and the angle at which is at, and so on and so forth.

The second big area to pay attention to when it comes to light is blue. We have certainly all heard that the blue light in your telephones is really bad for your sleep. Okay. So what happens is that we need a certain amount of blue light during the day, blue light will keep us awake and all of that.

When we evolved, you we evolved for the sun to go down and then for us to go to sleep because it's dark. So, and when the sun's going down, there's more red light, there's less blue light, and all of allows the body to produce melatonin, which then allows you to sleep. Okay. Obviously I'm simplifying the process, but basically you want less blue light at night so that you can actually go to sleep. And with the telephone, the telephone has an unnaturally high amount of blue light coming at you all the time, as do other screens, which means that it messes up your melatonin system if you are on a screen past sundown. That's the simplified version. So the idea is to have, people will say less screen after the sun goes down. How hard is that? It's really, really hard in this day and age. So there are solutions, which is...

Fabrice Neuman
Even more so in winter because the sun goes down very early in the day.

Anne Trager
Exactly. Exactly. So this is an impossible ask, right?

Fabrice Neuman
So before you go showing what you're going to show, because I think it's really important and people, think you should go see the video for that. Just to make sure and to explain that to people, you're not a big proponent blue glasses, lenses during the day, actually.

Anne Trager
Okay, so it depends on how much time. So I'm not an eye specialist, so this just comes from me. Okay? I just want to put that out there so people don't, you know, think that I'm giving some kind of medical advice or anything.

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager
We need blue light during the day. So if you spend all day on a screen, it is potentially helpful to have blue light blocking glasses. Although some people say they don't really help at all. As long as I regulate it based on the times of day, I'm happy.

I wake up in the morning, I go outside, I get my, you know, half an hour outside in the morning to regulate my intake, to regulate my circadian rhythm. And then I go outside regularly to get full spectrum light because I know that's what we I do not use blue light blocking glasses on the although some people do, and they find that it feel less tired. I say...do an experiment. I'm a biohacker. What I ddo at night, however, is put on serious blue light blocking glasses. Okay. They, the ones that I have, I have put them on for those of you who are watching this on the video. They're very, they look very red.

Fabrice Neuman
Hehe.

Anne Trager
And they, when you look through them, it looks very red and they block, they're designed to block blues and greens at the they're specifically designed to help you sleep at night. So I put these for anything that I do on a screen before I to

Fabrice Neuman
So they look like sunglasses. enveloping, like random around your head. So they really block all the light that would come through. And we'll put a link to this specific brand of glasses in the show notes so you can check them out.

Anne Trager
So there are other brands. Now, when I was having trouble with my sleeping, I wore them from sundown on for all light exposure. I don't need to do that anymore. My system is pretty regulated now. However, because we are sensitive to light, it's important to keep in mind that it's not just the screens that lot So if you go into the bathroom to brush your teeth and you flip on that bright white light, it's just telling your body, it's noon, let's wake up. So, you know, lower the lights at night. It will help you sleep.

So here's my take on the tech. First of all, if you're not doing all the lifestyle stuff first, the tech isn't gonna really So it's not going to take away the need. And I wish that this were true, but it's not gonna take away the need from actually going to sleep on time, on your time, and, you know, doing what you have to do get your body functioning in the right way. Now, sometimes I believe the tech can be really helpful to get you back on track. If you're really off track, I'm sure some of this tech would have made it quicker for me to get back on track. But for me, the goal is not to be dependent on my tech, but rather to use it for the short term, I mean, to get me back on track so that I don't need it, so that I can sleep whenever and wherever want to sleep. My brother used to sleep on the floor and he loves to sleep on the floor. Our daughter used to sleep on the floor and loved to sleep on the floor. I can't, I'm too sensitive a sleeper. I would love to be able to sleep anywhere on the floor or wherever, and to sleep deeply wherever without the need of some special mattress or some special this or that or a special. So anyway, I'd rather manage my lifestyle and my stress in such a way to naturally sleep better. That's my take.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, I would agree with that. Even if you have the budget for all the tech and toys and bells and whistles, you have to think first about how bothersome it would be to carry all your tech when you go someplace. If you like to go camping or you travel, whatever, it can be very bothersome. Some people, we have friends who unfortunately for them have sleep apnea and they need to carry a machine wherever they go.

And I know what a, we know what a pain it is. I mean, it's like another piece of luggage you have to carry with you. tech can help a ring, a watch is easy to carry and you have it with you anyway. Depending on something if you can avoid that, that would be better, I would say.

Anne Trager
Well, and honestly, I think that I'd rather spend that on something else. But that's me, okay? I mean, even me, I'm obsessed with this kind of stuff, okay? I love this stuff, but the prices are pretty high on some of this tech, so...

Fabrice Neuman
Well, if you can't, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Anne Trager
Okay. I'd like to share my gift to I mentioned briefly that I did spend a number of years not sleeping. Fabrice remembers, right?

Fabrice Neuman
I do, I do.

I have to admit that it was equally sad and annoying. Annoying sometimes because you could be cranky at times. Also sad because I could feel your pain.

Anne Trager
Well, so I fixed my sleep, And I found what I call sleep homeostasis, which means it's pretty much the same all the time, no matter what I do, I sleep well every I wake up without an alarm clock every morning and I feel recharged every morning. It's amazing. This has changed my life And I did it more through lifestyle than through any tech. By the time I got my Oura ring, I was kind of disappointed because I was sleeping really well. Not disappointed that I was sleeping well, but that it wasn't changing very much because I had already found that homeostasis. Anyway, I put everything that I learned from going through that process of reclaiming my sleep into a three-step process that I am giving away to people free of charge. And I'm doing that because when we sleep better, we feel better.

And I believe that makes us better people.

You can find it at potentialize.me/sleep. We will put that link in the show notes.

Fabrice Neuman
That's potentialize.me slash sleep

Okay, that's it for episode eight. Thank you, Anne. Thanks for listening. You can find all the links mentioned in this episode in the show notes directly in your podcast app.

And don't forget to go to our website, humanpulsepodcast.com to find more information and all of our previous episodes and also to send us feedback. That's humanpulsepodcast.com.

Anne Trager
Thank you for subscribing, sharing, and please do leave us a review that helps other people to find this podcast. And we will talk to you in two weeks.

Fabrice Neuman
Bye everyone