Episode transcription

(Be aware this transcription was done by AI and might contain some mistakes)

Anne Trager
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast, where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Anne Trager.

Fabrice Neuman
And I'm Fabrice Newman.

Anne Trager
We are recording on January 12th, 2025.

Fabrice Neuman
Human pulse is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

Anne Trager
Okay, Fabrice, last time we talked about sleep. So maybe today we can talk about staying awake and specifically with coffee. I believe you got some coffee-related tech for Christmas.

Fabrice Neuman
Yes, I did. Thanks to you. I've been waiting for that for quite a long time. But so I got this. So what I'm showing to the camera is a mug, just a black mug. It doesn't look like much, right? But the thing is it has a battery embedded and some kind of apparatus to keep my coffee at the right temperature. And it's wonderful. I love it. I use it all the time. So it's called an Ember Mug, E-M-B-E-R. We'll put the link in show notes and we'll show you a few shots on the screen for those who can watch the YouTube version of our podcast. Yeah, it's wonderful. I've been using it all the time since Christmas. Thank you again.

Anne Trager
Well, you're very welcome. I got a mug too, which I am now showing to everybody, which has no batteries, but it is the Human Pulse Podcast mug. So I'm very grateful for that. And I use it all the time too, not with the same effects, because I don't have the right temperature. Okay. And the right temperature is really important for drinking your coffee. So let's dedicate this, if you will, to coffee.

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm. hehe

Anne Trager
Okay. Fabrice and I are both complete total coffee snobs. We love coffee. We drink coffee. We obsess over temperatures among other things. So I thought I'd bring a little bit of research into this podcast. So there's the University of California Davis Coffee Center study that found that the most acceptable drinking temperature range for coffee is 58 to 66 degrees Celsius. So that's about 136 to 150 degrees or 151 degrees Fahrenheit. And it is most enjoyable at a mid-range between 60 and 62 degrees Celsius.

Fabrice, what is your peak temperature now that you have played around with setting the temperature with your mug?

Fabrice Neuman
Hehehe

Yeah, so let me go back to the mug a bit. The interesting part, there are several interesting parts with this mug. it can keep the coffee warm. It's also Bluetooth enabled so you can connect it to your phone in my case to my tablet. There's a little app and then you can set the temperature and you can go from 55 degrees Celsius to 62 or three. I don't exactly remember.

Forgive me, I'm not good in imperial. And the good temperature for me is evolving because I'm also starting learning to use the mug a little bit more. Obviously, it has to recharge every now and then. So it can keep the coffee at preferred temperature for up to 90 minutes depending on the temperature you choose. So the higher the temperature, obviously the shorter the autonomy. And so I had this impulsion to lower the temperature just to save battery life as I would do with a phone, right? But the thing is, yes, okay, I am guilty.

Anne Trager
Hahaha

Okay, who is the geek here?

Fabrice Neuman
Guilty as charged. The thing is, I started to use the mug so much during the day that it would be then anyway completely empty in both meanings of the term. So I chose to take the charging pad and to put it in my office where I most use the mug. So if you keep the, I will show that also on the video feed.

If you keep the mug on the charging pad, it will keep charged and whichever beverage you have in there will stay warm. So I upped the temperature a bit thanks to that because I didn't fear anymore for the battery in the mug to be empty. So now my preferred temperature for coffee is 59 degrees Celsius. Above that, I find it for my taste to be, well, not as pleasurable. I'm not talking... about taste here, but about the fact that I have this burning feeling if I go higher than that. So we'll see how it goes. So 59 degrees Celsius for me seems to be the right temperature for now, I guess. I'm testing. That's what I do.

Anne Trager
So there are two things here. One is the mouth feel, like just the temperature, what you like temperature-wise. And then there's the flavor. Like, when do you get the most flavor? And I'm assuming that the lower the temperature goes, then the less wide the range of flavors, up to a certain point where, obviously, if it's too hot, it's too hot, and your mouth is going to burn, and you're not going to taste anything at all, which, of course, defeats the purpose.

Fabrice Neuman
Right.

Anne Trager
So this got me thinking about brewing temperatures because we also have a whole ritual around brewing our coffee and how we make coffee. so I was looking at the optimal temperatures for brewing. So a long time ago, we got a water kettle that allows us to choose the temperature. And we've always put it around 90 degrees Celsius, which is about 195 degrees Fahrenheit. And so I thought I'd look it up and make sure we were doing the right thing as far as brewing coffee goes. And the temperature ranges according to a number of sources that I saw were 90 to 96 degrees Celsius to get the most flavor out of your coffee. Now, if you go higher than that, the grounds become really bitter. And if you go lower than that, then it doesn't extract enough flavor and you get really weak coffee. So the actual temperature you use depends on the way you are making coffee.

It's going to be different if you if you make drip coffee, if you use an espresso machine, if you use a French press or if you use what we use, which I'm going to let Fabrice describe. Well, one of the ways we make coffee.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, and mostly me these days. So I use an Aeropress, which is just a, if you will, a plastic tube. But I discovered that through my geek fellows on the web and on podcasts, because it seems that there's a big relationship between geeks and coffee making. So a few years ago, the Aeropress was all the rage and I tried and I adopted it.

So it's a tube with a, it's like a pump system, if you will, with a seal, a rubber seal. And you press on. Yes, you're right. Let's be precise. I will show that also and we'll put the link in the show notes. And it's, it's been my preferred way of making coffee for years now because it, for me, it's a mix between

Anne Trager
I think it's a silicone

Fabrice Neuman
The coffee flavor I want and also how practical it is, it's easy to obviously longer than using an espresso machine or drip coffee machine or pour over because you need to take care of But it's also very easy to clean, for example, much simpler to clean than an espresso machine.

There's a link between this and the Ember mug because to come back to what you were saying about the temperature, the best temperature to brew the coffee, I kind of thought that maybe I can lower the temperature use for brewing because the coffee will stay warm in my mug. And so I had this, I thought intuitive thought of

I can do that. And it was, the coffee was not as good. It's just, I, to emphasize the importance of temperature for brewing, I just lowered the temperature of brewing by five degrees on the aforementioned kettle going from 90 to 85. And the coffee was not as good. not sure the kettle we have is so precise as to, you know, the temperature it displays. But so going from 90 to 85 on that kettle made the coffee not as good. So I went back. And so what I like in the AeroPress, it's a very simple process. And I use the use the inversed method, which is to put the plunger in and turn it over.

Pu coffee grounds in it and then the water I pour over and then I wait a bit. So there are different things that will come back to it as the importance also, not only the temperature, but the amount of time you wait and stuff like that. And this is what I like. And what I like with that method is that I was able also to try different grinding sizes to help get to the flavor I prefer.

Anne Trager
It's so interesting. So the AeroPress is technologically interesting as well. And it was developed by some geek. And please do go to the website and learn all about the history of this, because it's really quite interesting. So it combines, because you have the seal and you press down, it combines pressure extraction and then what we call immersion brewing, is when the grounds are immersed in water, which is what you do in a French press. And then it's got micro filtration. And there are two different kinds of filters the AeroPress. we'll come back to that. There's also this thing about temperature control that we've talked about. So it allows you to actually make the coffee at a slightly lower temperature so that you don't get that bitter flavor we were talking about. And there's the compact design. Now, I always use the Aeropress when I travel because I'm very particular about the kind of coffee that I drink. And I drink primarily decaf. And so I bring it with me and I bring the Aeropress with me. And then I can have my whole coffee ritual with me because it's easy to carry. It's very compact.

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager
And let's see what else is, well, that's already pretty good. I mean, it's a really fantastic design. I well, we both use the metal filters. They have metal filters and paper filters for Aeropress. And I choose the metal filters paper will absorb some of the oils that contain some of the goodness and deliciousness and beneficial elements of coffee.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah.

Yeah, you told me that. I'm only using metal filters as well because of that. I should try again because it's been a while taste and feel the difference. But if I remember correctly, with the metal filter, it seems that the coffee is more complete, you will, fuller, I guess would be the term.

Anne Trager
Mm. Yeah.

Fabrice Neuman
And so I keep doing using the metal. There's one thing, I'm using every day, several times a day, as you know. But you use the Aeropause only when you slash travel, because there's one thing that you don't like in the Aeropress is that it's made of quote unquote plastic. So it's obviously food grade plastic, whatever it's called, right? Still, you prefer another way and another utensil to make your coffee. Tell us more about it.

Anne Trager
Yeah, so you're right. And I completely trust AeroPress that they're, you know, choose the best and highest quality food grade plastic that, you know, so that we can drink from it. However, I, out of principle, avoid plastic as much as possible, just in case. It's my just in case policy. And so I spent a really long time looking for the kind of French press, I do a French press that doesn't have any plastic in it at all. And I found one made by Le Creuset and it's made out of ceramic. It's a French brand called Le Creuset and they are known for their ceramics. And so it's got, it's made out of ceramic and then it has entirely metal filtration system.

So that's the one I use. Also like it because of the quantity. I like to, have one cup of coffee every day. And it's not a small cup of coffee. It's kind of a big cup of coffee. So if I use the AeroPress, it doesn't make it big enough for me. It's that simple. This is my great frustration when we travel because then I have to make these very, these mixtures of very strong coffee to which I add a little bit of water so I can make it a little longer and all of that. So when I have my French press, I don't need to do that.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, we'll go back to that, but people have to know that you don't drink only coffee in that big mug of yours, right? You add many things to the coffee, cocoa first, but not only that. We'll have to go back to the mixture that we actually drink every day, right?

Anne Trager
Absolutely.

I think we will. But I wanted to talk a little bit before we do that about the technology in coffee, I mean, with regard to living well and our topic here. Because...

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, because it's not only about taste though. I love coffee and obviously this is the main reason why I drink it. But there are some, as we know, lots of different effects of coffee and caffeine on the body and you're an expert on that. So this is also why we want to talk about it.

Anne Trager
Yeah, yeah. Well, so most people drink coffee for the caffeine, right? Because it keeps you awake. So how does it do that? It's really, really a very cool thing. Okay. So the caffeine is going to bind in your brain with something called an adenosine receptor. Adenosine signals tiredness. And what happens is over the day we collect, you know, the brain's adenosine receptors will collect adenosine and then at the end of the day, you feel tired. So when you drink caffeine, it will block that. And so you don't feel sleepy. Okay? And caffeine will block those receptors for four to six hours. It's very, it really depends on your genetics and, how much caffeine you get and so on and so forth. so you get four to six hours of wakefulness or greater wakefulness, and it takes about 10 hours to completely eliminate caffeine from your system. So if you look at this, just, if you look at this, speaking, that means 10 hours before you go to bed, if you want to be sleepy, you should stop drinking coffee, okay? Or taking in any caffeine because there is caffeine in other things.

If you want to sleep well. It's a pretty simple calculation to make. Obviously, it depends on how sensitive you are to caffeine and so on and so forth, but it's a good rule to follow.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, because we all know people who like to have a cup of coffee at the end of dinner, for example, which is even in my case, because I unquote, lots of coffee during the day. But I tend to stop at two or three p.m. And if I drink coffee after dinner, it's going to have an effect on my sleep. Yeah.

Anne Trager
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that people who drink coffee, who drink a lot of coffee and who drink it after meals and who insist on it, and it does, the bitter flavor is going to help with digestion. There's something about closing off a meal, at least from a flavor standpoint, that's really, really interesting. However, I would challenge those who think that it doesn't affect their sleep to actually go off it for a while and see, okay?

Fabrice Neuman
Mm-hmm.

Hmph.

Anne Trager
It takes a while when you go off of coffee. And there is no way out of it. If you quit coffee, the first three days are just going to be hell. Because we get addicted to coffee. We build up a tolerance and it's really interesting to actually go through the experiment of going off coffee for a while.

Fabrice Neuman
Boy does it, because I tried.

Anne Trager
when you drink coffee regularly, your body creates more adenosine. What does that mean? It means that you feel more tired. So it's actually not a really good thing if you want to feel less. So the more you drink coffee, the more adenosine receptors you have, and so you actually need more caffeine in order to feel the same thing that you felt before. And you need more to feel the same kind of alertness. So that's really interesting. So when I realized that that was happening, I went through a number of experiments. I got off of coffee for a while. Now the full, the first three days are hard, but for an actual reset, it takes about two weeks without caffeine in order to get back to where you were before. And so the way that you can hack this,
to be more alert is to go off caffeine completely for one to two weeks and then to reintroduce it, but irregularly. So when you reintroduce it, it has more effect. You don't need as much because you've reset your adenosine receptor numbers, which is very cool. And it means it works better. And so what I did for a really long time is that I would use caffeinated coffee every couple of days, okay, so that I didn't lower my numbers. I would alternate between no caffeine and caffeine. And that way it just worked better and I felt more alert. And I'm all about energy, so I always want to have more energy. Well, the thing is, is that I developed such a sensitivity the caffeine that I don't actually need it anymore at all. And there occasionally if I know I have a really, really long day or I'm feeling or I had a bad night's sleep or something, I'll only add a few caffeinated beans into my decaf in the morning just to have an extra boost. But other than that, I don't need it. Now I know that some of you out there know and will probably, you know, bring it up that decaf is not entirely decaffeinated. It does have a little caffeine in it. Absolutely. When I get off the caffeine, which I do do on regular basis off it altogether, then I take out the caffeine, I mean, the decaf, the chocolate and all of that. Okay. And that's just to reset. But now if I have more than just a few grains of caffeinated coffee, I'm actually climbing the walls. Okay. I've reset my sensitivity and I see Fabrice laughing because he's seen me on full caffeine. I mean, this is me on no caffeine. Okay.

Fabrice Neuman
Yeah, that's amazing.

No, it's true. But.

So it's been more difficult for me to get off of caffeine, maybe off coffee, basically, because I like to drink it. so, yeah, and if I stop coffee, I do have these withdrawal effects of, you know, strong headaches and stuff like that.

Anne Trager
Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I get it. I get it.

Fabrice Neuman
I have to admit, there's one side effect of this Ember mug, which is I actually drink less coffee thanks to it because I can drink it more slowly, right? Because is one of the things I don't like when your coffee is getting cold. It's not as good. It's not as With this apparatus,

Anne Trager
You

Ha, interesting.

Hmm.

Fabrice Neuman
The coffee stays warm because it's the main purpose. And so I can drink it more slowly. And really, really, it reduced my coffee intake. And so, yeah, it was a side effect I was not expecting.

Anne Trager
Huh, okay.

Well, there are a few other things about coffee that I think are really interesting, some hacks, okay, to like to get the most out of it. Now, coffee is actually really good for you. mean, there's lots out there, a lot of studies out there. didn't look into it here to bring those in, but coffee is really good for you to a certain extent.

That said, I'm all about getting the most out of what I do. So how do you get the most out of coffee? So first of all, we talked about going off it and working on your adenosine receptor numbers. Second way of doing that is to wait about an hour after waking up before you drink your And I know, when I mention this to people, I kind of see them squirm because

I know a lot of people who get up and they're just, don't want to talk to anybody until they've had their coffee. And I get that and it's just an adaptation process, but why would you do that? So first of all, because the cortisol levels in your body will peak naturally 30 to 45 minutes after you wake up in the morning. This is how, I mean, it's because of cortisol that we get out of bed and that we wake up.

Fabrice Neuman
Hmm.

Anne Trager
And so it's on the rise when you get up, otherwise you would not get And about 30 to 45 minutes later, it's at its peak, naturally.

And if you drink coffee during that period during the peak, then you get an excessive spike and you can feel overstimulated and jittery. Know that coffee takes about 15 minutes to kick in.

So there you go. can calculate, you know, I get up and I wait for my natural cortisol levels to rise and then I have my

What also happens is that after about five days of regularly drinking coffee right when you get up, you mess up your natural cortisol levels. They drop, It becomes harder to get up.

I think this is all really interesting because we can play with these little details in order to get the most out of our day, out of our wakefulness, out of our caffeine, out of our coffee. It's all in the details, which brings us to what we all, both of us, all of the stuff we are putting in our coffee in the morning.

Fabrice Neuman
Well, so figuratively speaking, it's a whole new can of worms. So, but we're not going to talk about that today because I know human pulse is never longer than 30 minutes. And we're going to be way over if we start talking about those details and we want to go over all those details because well, as you said at the beginning of this episode, we are coffee snobs. And so we like to think, maybe overthink in details about the coffee we use.

The beans we use, and also the way we grind them. So we'll talk about that in the next episode.

Anne Trager
Well, and there's more than that. There's a whole secret to having more energy that we'll talk about next time as well.

Fabrice Neuman
Absolutely.

Anne Trager
Thank you for listening to the Human Pulse Podcast today. You will find all of the episodes at humanpulsepodcast.com. Thank you for subscribing wherever you listen to your podcasts. Please do leave us a review as that helps other people to find our podcast.

Fabrice Neuman
And you can find us on different social media, so we'll let you search for our names and you can find us. Thank you and talk to you in two weeks.